Captain Midnight Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Would canvas be historically accurate for a frock coat or sailor's short jacket? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Short answer, yup, definitely for short jackets. From the inventory of Joseph Haycock's slop shop 1699: "14 mens canvis jacketts 4 boyes ffine canvis jacketts ... 4 boyes canvis jacketts lined 3 mens canvis jacketts lined" Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I've never heard of a frock coat made from canvas. But short jackets (as Foxe has quoted) and also sailors' frocks (not frock coats) were made from canvas. So were breeches and trousers... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 I've never heard of a frock coat made from canvas. But short jackets (as Foxe has quoted) and also sailors' frocks (not frock coats) were made from canvas. So were breeches and trousers... Okay, I've done enough reading to know what the short sailor's (or common man's) jacket's are... But what is a sailor's frock? Is it something between one of the common man's jacket and a frock? Or is it another term for the justicorps? And does Kass have a pattern for said garment? Which one is it, if so? Just trying to get the garb lingo straightened out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 8, 2007 Author Share Posted January 8, 2007 Thanks Foxe and Kass! I am particularly happy to find out that the short jackets were indeed canvas! Now I can make my justacourps in wool and use canvas for my jacket. :) "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 A sailors' "frock" is kinda like a sweater in shape - similar to a short sailors' jacket but without the front opening, only a slit at the neck. They make good multi-period wear because they didn't change very much throughout their history, which stretched at least from the 16th century to the near-modern day. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 They look kinda like hoodies, Michael. But a little wider in the body. Thus: I don't make a pattern for them, but you give me ideas... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Ya know, after hearing Foxe's description... I got an image in my mind of a very basic canvas smock with a keyhole neck line.... I pretty much lost all interest... I'm making some pretty ig concessions with my garb by going for an "average seaman" type portrayal rather than something fancy and pretty... (Although after I get a basic set of starter garb done for an average sailor type portrayal I will make something nicer for vanity wear)... But after seeing that picture... Gack! That is hideous looking! I guess it may suit some tastes... The pants in that photo look very much like what Viking age Rus baloon pants are supposed to... What is the provenance of that drawing? Is it a picture of a Russian or Eastern European? Or something else entirely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathyrn Ramsey Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Michael, do a google search for Cassack (spell not sure) That is what you are looking for. Hawkyns wears one with his sailors kit. Though very soon he is going to need the new fancy coat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Do you mean Cossacks, as in the horsemen of the Russian steppes? Now that you mention it, the depiction looks very much like a cossack. Thanks Kathryn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Something like this..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 The picture is an engraving of an English seaman, made by Cesare Vecelli in 1600. I don't know if I'd describe the garment as a casaque - casaques usually have a front opening in my experience Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward T. Porter Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 A sailors' "frock" is kinda like a sweater in shape - similar to a short sailors' jacket but without the front opening, only a slit at the neck. They make good multi-period wear because they didn't change very much throughout their history, which stretched at least from the 16th century to the near-modern day. So if I want to make one I can use Kass´s pattern for the jacket to alter it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Bela, if you want to make the English Sailor's frock like in the illustration I posted, you'd be better off buying the English Civil War Soldier's Coat pattern (RH110) and making the soldier's coat option without the front opening. That would be closer. Michael, the pants are what the English sailors wore but that was early in the GAoP. By 1700 or so all the pictures show slops or trousers. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaelsbagley Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Thanks Kass, The proportions of the line drawing you posted made the outfit look rather... well, unappealing to (in my eyes anyway)... But after seeing Patrick Hand in a reconstruction of that outfit or one simialr to it) in the photo he posted, it actually looks rather good. (Hat's off to you Patrick, and/or your clothing maker). Thanks for sharing the photo of the reconstruction... It really gies a far better impression of the outfit than the line drawing does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Yeah. Vecelli had this weird habit of making his clothing HUGE. Just his style I guess. It's good for those of us who want to see details of the construction. But it does make it look weird and ugly on people. Pat's outfit is exactly what I think Vecelli saw. It's the realistic version of what he illustrated. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 If you are interested, I can lay the jacket out and take a picture of it. The front and back are basicly the same, othere than the opening down the front. I didn't have enough canvas to make the sleeves, so I had to add the blue at the cuffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing those photos as well, Patrick... "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 Short answer, yup, definitely for short jackets.From the inventory of Joseph Haycock's slop shop 1699: "14 mens canvis jacketts 4 boyes ffine canvis jacketts ... 4 boyes canvis jacketts lined 3 mens canvis jacketts lined" What do you suppose these jackets would have been lined with? Linen? Or perhaps wool for warmth in the cold weather? Do any of the records specify? Since I live in the blistering sunny south, I will probably line my canvas jacket with linen... "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkyns Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I don't know if I'd describe the garment as a casaque - casaques usually have a front opening in my experience It's one of those terms that seems to have multiple definitions, depending on the source. Plimoth Plantation refers to them as cassacks (cassaques) and I believe Stu Peachey does, too. Although I've got so damn many of his books and others from his publishing compnay it will take forever to find it. Hawkyns Cannon add dignity to what otherwise would be merely an ugly brawl I do what I do for my own reasons. I do not require anyone to follow me. I do not require society's approval for my actions or beliefs. if I am to be judged, let me be judged in the pure light of history, not the harsh glare of modern trends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 What do you suppose these jackets would have been lined with? Linen? Or perhaps wool for warmth in the cold weather? Do any of the records specify? Since I live in the blistering sunny south, I will probably line my canvas jacket with linen... It makes no mention of what type of linings were used, Midnight. Just "lined". Other jackets were lined with linen or cottoned wool. So I guess the choice is yours. There were also unlined canvas jackets, so you don't have to line them at all. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 What do you suppose these jackets would have been lined with? Linen? Or perhaps wool for warmth in the cold weather? Do any of the records specify? Since I live in the blistering sunny south, I will probably line my canvas jacket with linen... It makes no mention of what type of linings were used, Midnight. Just "lined". Other jackets were lined with linen or cottoned wool. So I guess the choice is yours. There were also unlined canvas jackets, so you don't have to line them at all. Ok, thanks Kass! Would "cottoned wool" be similar to the wool jean material in Civil War uniforms? "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Nope. It's not a blend. Cottoned wool is 100% wool with a thick, spongey nap. They think the word for "cotton" actually came from this type of wool and not vice versa. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Midnight Posted January 9, 2007 Author Share Posted January 9, 2007 Ok, I'm clear now. Thanks so much, Kass. "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Not a problem, Midnight. We might even have some for sale soon. Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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