Clothing Colours

[blackjohn]

Wasn't there also big importation of woad to the southern colonies in the late 1600's-early 1700's as a way to try and decrease the dependence on Indian indigo as well?

Fascinating. I'm certainly going to look that one up!!!

[kass]

Yeah, John, can you let me know too?

[Patrick Hand]

There was an interesting thread in the blackpowder forum about how they dyed cloth green....

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb...php?tid/198622/

[kass]

Yeah, but we can't read it, Pat.

[Patrick Hand]

Yeah, but we can't read it, Pat

Rats... I was afraid that might happen....

I'll cut and paste the best parts latter......

[kass]

You rock, Pat!

[Patrick Hand]

Kinda the Readers Digest version.....

What did the colonists use for green dye?

Green was traditionally a difficult color to achieve. I don't know why, but all my textile friends say so.

Contrary to popular misconception, good green colours were hard to produce on fabric with dyestuffs. Some dull and pale greens (brownish, greyish, or yellowish coloured) can be produced from plant matter, however the bright green colour of plants is not easily transfered to fabric. (despite all the evidence of grass stains). To get a nice clear green, fabric was first dyed with a yellow dye (eg weld, dyer's greenweed) and then, once dry, overdyed with a blue dye (woad). As such a "good" green fabric might concievably cost more than a blue fabric.

Here's some dye information from 300 A.D. - 1880.

http://www.elizabethancostume.net/dyes/index.html

This is relative to wool and other protein-based goods.

Green dyes on a commercial scale were generally done with a acid-copper salt. Cupric acetate or copper sulfate.

Documentation on this process goes back to Rome in 50 A.D.

The green copper dye was one of a number of dyes known as mineral pigment dyes.

On wool, silk, etc., the copper dye had the benefit of making the fabric bug proof. The wool would become toxic to any form of invertebrate life.

Fabrics dyed with one of the mineral pigment dyes could not be washed in acidic water without fading. But water with a caustic soap would not leach dye.

If you wish to experiment.

Purchase copper sulfate at most garden supply stores. Make a saturated solution of copper sulfate and add about a shot glass of vinegar to the liquid. Then soak the wool fabric in this solution.

The dye is "fixed" into the fabric by gentle heating. Large scale fabric dying used a steam bath to fix the dye.

At around 150 F the copper sulfate breaks down and forms the carbonate of copper. The copper ions (atoms) bond to the sulfur ions (atoms) in the protein of the wool. While the fabric becomes toxic to wee critters who would eat it the dye is not a danger to the wearer of the fabric.

Copper acetate will give a darker green color in the wool because a saturated solution of copper acetate has more copper in it compared to a saturated solution of copper sulfate.

This green dye was also used on leather, horn, etc.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

I was mistaken. It was indigo that was imported to the colonies not woad.

In 1649 Europeans also attempted to break the Indian monopoly on indigo by planting this species in the New World. The first crop of indigo in the New World was produced by Eliza Lucas Pinckney in South Carolina (1740s), but there indigo was passed over in favor of rice (Oryza) cultivation during the Revolutionary War.

from Woad is Me, from a "Plants & Culture" course at UCLA. Lots of other interesting bits on other dye plants in the main index as well.

The attempt at growing indigo as a profitable crop in the colonies is mentioned in a bunch of other places on-line that I'm running into but none of them offer much in the way of dates unfortunately.

[Red Maria]

Yeah... I'm skeptical too, Duchess. I don't really know much about the Victorian period and I know they loved bright colours (even though we think of them as always being in black and white ). But neon is quite a different thing than "bright", you know?

I'm hearing what Pat is saying -- aniline dyes are much brighter and more colourfast than natural dyes. They would have seemed "neon" to people in the 19th century. But day-glo they weren't.

Perhaps by "dayglo" she just means extraordinarily bright?

I recall reading a Sherlock Holmes story were a women was required to wear a dress that "was a peculiar shade of electric blue". Would this be an aniline dye? Electric blue is very bright almost neon.

[Red Maria]

I am lucky enough to work at a place with a well stocked herb garden. There is madder, woad, weld, indigo, dyer's woodruff etc. The head gardener is very good at informing me when she is cleaning up the beds and offering me first dibbs (except for the maddder that usually goes to a volunteer woman who does Revolutionary War re-enactment sometimes at ColonialWilliamsburg).

Unfortunately I have no where to dye things. too many neighbors, too close by and some these things can stink to high heaven ( I do store them just in case one day...). IDid you ever see the episode of Worst Jobs in History when Tony Robinson tried woad dying YYYYYYuck!!!Then there was the myrex [sp?] episode! Ewooooo!

[kass]

Try weld or dyer's greenweed/dyer's broom if you can get some, Maria. Dyer's greenweed smells like asparagas and weld smells like some teas. And you don't need any special equipment -- just boil it on the stove. These are food safe dyes.

Other food safe dyes are saffron, of course. You can boil it on the stove. Safflower is also food safe, but heat kills the dye. So you just put the fabric in with the flowers and let it soak overnight. I've got stuff about this on my website that I referenced above.

Indigo/woad has to be fermented, and that's what makes it stink. But there are many, many natural dyes that can be boiled on the stove and smell no different than vegetables or herbs. Some ARE vegetable and herbs. :)

As to electric blue, it's impossible to know what Doyle meant in his story, but it sounds anoline to me. They were brand new in the time of Holmes and very popular. But they weren't "neon". I mean, we're used to them now. But compare even royal blue to the colour of blue jeans. If blue jeans blue was the brightest colour you ever saw previously, even a little brighter blue would look neon to you.

[blackjohn]

I was mistaken. It was indigo that was imported to the colonies not woad.

Ah-ha! Finally got around to researching this and found the same things as you. Pretty cool stuff.

[Salty]

mates,

would a chemise be white or could they be dyed as well, if so what colours would be suitable, pastels or not?

[michaelsbagley]

Saltypots' question also ties into another question I have in this vein.

Linen (the most common material for shirts/chemises) is naturally oatmeal in colour, would they "Average" working class person of the time have his/her shirt/chemise in natural linen? Or would bleacehed linen be used even by the common masses? And assuming bleached linen was a common material, how white was the average "bleached linen" of the time? Snow white? Ivory? Paler Oatmeal?

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Michel that's an interesting question. I think a lot of what we see as white currently is actually optically whitened. Optical whitening/bleaching is actually a dye process which adds UV blocking molecules to the fiber. It didn't start until the early 20th century and wasn't applied to fibers at first. It's pretty safe to say that ultra white optically whitened linen isn't the idea material for something period.

That's not to say that genuine white isn't possible with natural methods though. The sun does a remarkable job of whitening, more so when applied to a damp garment I've noticed. Shirts & shifts are high wash & wear items and would have reason to spend more time in the sun drying. It would be an interesting test to try sunning a piece of unbleached linen and seeing just how close to modern white it becomes over time. In fact I think I'll add that to my projects list.

Now, I don't know about you but "snow white" around here is no shade of "white" I've ever seen

[Patrick Hand]

This is from Muzzleloader Sept/Oct. 1986 in an article by Beth Gilgun

Off the loon, linen is brown. It can be bleached or dyed, although linen is more resistant to dyes than either cotton or wool. The bleaching process before 1760 (when the Irish developed a bleach powder of chlorine in line) consisted of thirteen steps, which took about a month to complete

1. Soak the linen 36 to 49 hours in warm water, rinse and dry.

2. Soak in lye and cow dung 48 hours.

3. Stretch cloth over the grass in a bleach-yard.

4. Wash off the cow dung.

5. Beat cloth with "bat staffs" 2 to 3 hours.

6. Place cloth into boiling lye; soak 24 hours.

7. Wash cloth: stretch it over the bleach-green 24 hours.

8. Beat with bat staffs.

9. Repeat the last three steps for 8 to 10 days.

10. Place cloth in buttermilk for 1 or 2 nights.

11. Wash and beat the cloth again, then stretch it over the bleach-green.

12. Sour it again with buttermilk.

12  Repeat the process for another week, until the cloth is white enough.

[Lady Alyx]

Ever notice the primary colors are all the basic colors of nature....and the prism. Just a note... :)

Was Safron used for yellow?

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Saffron can be used for dye. It makes a yellowish orange color, like Buddhist monks robes. Weld makes a much brighter, truer yellow.

[Quartermaster James]

What would an early 18th century frock coat, and I'm thinking 1730 or so here, have as a lining? Would it strive to match the outer color, or to contrast it?

[kass]

Chole,

Everything I've ever dyed with saffron has come out bright yellow without a touch of orange. Of course I've only ever dyed linen with it. It comes out of the dyebath screaming orange, but that all washes away in the rinse. I know Buddhist monks' robes are dyed with saffron, but I wonder if Eastern saffron is a different plant than the Spanish saffron I used...

Click here for a saffron experiment that I actually photographed. Voila!

Jigme,

There's really no tried and true answer to your question. Some frock coats had contrasting linings, some had matching linings, some didn't have linings at all. Some were linen, some were silk...

Tough one...

Kass

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Chole,

Everything I've ever dyed with saffron has come out bright yellow without a touch of orange. Of course I've only ever dyed linen with it. It comes out of the dyebath screaming orange, but that all washes away in the rinse. I know Buddhist monks' robes are dyed with saffron, but I wonder if Eastern saffron is a different plant than the Spanish saffron I used...

Click here for a saffron experiment that I actually photographed. Voila!

have you mordanted with tin Kass? Granted I've never dyed with saffron (I stick to the cheap stuff like the black walnuts in my yard ) but everything I've read suggests tin or alum to keep the orange color.

[kass]

Never needed to. The yellow (which is the colour I was after -- replicating the saffron shirts from Irish history were my goal) stays just fine and that's what I cared about. You see, I did my experiments because some Irish "scholars" were saying that saffron produced a brownish colour -- which we both know is bull.

If I ever get back into dyeing, I'll have to mordant my linen. In my weld and greenweed experiments, I've used alum-mordanted linen. The problem is that alum does tend to dull bright colours. I'd be surprised if it preserved the orange colour on linen. But as I said, I haven't done saffron with a mordant before.

Time to get out the old lobster pot, isn't it?

[CrazyCholeBlack]

oh well that makes sense. If it was yellow you were after and it's yellow you got.

I've always dyed in one of those propane "turkey fryer" pots out in the yard. No big mess in the kitchen that way

[kass]

I never had a yard before last year. And we all know I'm not allowed in the kitchen!

I was just going to add to my post a caution -- you can't always believe what you read in books, even when the writer is an expert in her field. I remember reading in one of Patricia Baines' books (an expert on linen history and production) that safflower would produce a yellow colour on linen if boiled. The truth is that safflower will produce NOTHING on linen if boiled. Boiling kills the red dye in safflower which is the only dye that is amenable to vegetable fibres. Boiling safflower will produce a yellow dye on animal fibres, like wool and silk, but the red dye is very heat sensitive and will not survive.

When I read this, I thought perhaps my experiments were wrong. But as much as Patricia Baines knows about linen, she isn't a dyer. She obviously recorded some information incorrectly and no one caught it.

I'm still not convinced that saffron will produce orange on linen (on silk, I would believe...). It just goes against everything I know about dyeing linen AND about working with saffron.

[jessie k.]

So...about naturally colored wool...most of the "black" sheep I've ever seen are actually just a dark brown, but are there any breeds of sheep that produce a pure black wool? I've also seen wool dyed a nice black by over-dyeing brown wool with indigo, but I've no idea how long the color would last. Any ideas?