Clothing Colours

[michaelsbagley]

So I've been thinking too much, and I started wondering if there were any colours that were particularily popular to the GAoP.... And would certain colours be significantly more or less in cost and have class issues attached to them?

I don't know a great deal about the GAoP yet, but I'm thinking by that point in history, the fabric/dyeing industry would have developed to the point where most colours are obtainable, but it's still early enough that I think certain colours would be easier or harder to obtain and hence affect the price thereof and possibly have class connotations attached to them.

I'm specifically wondering about ochre... I have a few spare yards of ochre (dark mustard coloured) wool that I am thinking of making a jacket and/or waistcoat from and was wondering if the colour would be at all innappropriate.

Any thoughts would be appreciated,as I would liek to know more about fabrics, colours and the like from the period just for personal knowledge.

[kass]

Well, the short answer, Michael, you've guessed. Dye technology was such that just about every colour was available. Some were more expensive (black, bright reds), some were less (blue jeans blue). But pretty much anything this side of neon is documentable. However it's always a good idea to err on the side of muted and less-bright colours. So you see, your ochre wool sounds perfect!

In England wool was the most commonly used fabric -- from fine "tropical weight" to heavy broadcloth and everything in between. Linen was used for undergarments and some other clothes. Canvas (usually hemp but also linen) was much used by sailors for thinks like wet weather gear -- overcoats, slops, jackets...

Cotton was coming into use in this period, but it depends on where you were and who you were if you had it. Silks, same thing.

[Duchess]

Kass, someone was telling me that neon dyes and colors were invented in the Victorian Era. Have you run across any references for this?

[kass]

Hmmm... I'm going to guess that they meant that the first artificial dyes were invented in the Victorian era. These were known as aniline dyes and were derived from benzene. The first aniline dye was made in 1856 by William Perkins and called "mauve".

I don't really know when neon/day-glo dyes were invented, but I assume the day-glo effect is a product of treatment of the fabric rather than the dye colour itself.

Interestingly enough, you can make an almost-neon green with weld and indigo, two of the most common dyestuffs in the GAoP. :)

[Patrick Hand]

On an old eppisode of (I think) Connections, they talked about the new aniline dye colors that were developed... and the craze to use the realy bright colors... chartruce (sp) etc.... they wern't "Day-glo"... but at the time they were much brighter than what could be made from natural dyes......

We are so use to modern chemical dyes, that we don't think about how much period dyes fadded ... well other than our "blue-jeans".........

[Duchess]

Hmm, I asked a few questions about what she meant and it was definately neon/dayglo as we know it that she was talking about, but couldn't remember any sources. I'd bet the dyes were around by the 1940's since there was neon paint during WWII. But I was and am skeptical about it being used for dyes during Victorian times.

[kass]

Yeah... I'm skeptical too, Duchess. I don't really know much about the Victorian period and I know they loved bright colours (even though we think of them as always being in black and white ). But neon is quite a different thing than "bright", you know?

I'm hearing what Pat is saying -- aniline dyes are much brighter and more colourfast than natural dyes. They would have seemed "neon" to people in the 19th century. But day-glo they weren't.

Perhaps by "dayglo" she just means extraordinarily bright?

[Morgan Dreadlocke]

On an old eppisode of (I think) Connections-

I sawr this series fer sale in vhs tape a few years ago. Twas not the series that be shown on PBS tv but featured the same British commentator. Would ya be knowin' if the originals be availiable anywhars? T'would be (imho) one of the 3 best documentaries ever filmed.

In keepin with the topic- What patterens an textures be common fer the period? Fancy embrodieries, tassels an such? I doesn't want ta be too garrishly done up like the besilvered cowboys in the New Years day parade.

[Skavenger]

Please excuse my naivity, but where could I find the best resource for information on making up my own dyes? Vegetable dyes I'm OK with, but would like to broaden my colourful horzons

[hurricane]

James Burke is the show's host - a terrific series on how one thing in history begat another, and another.

You can get it on amazon.com - just type in James Burke and it will pop up.

-- Hurricane

[Morgan Dreadlocke]

Aye, J burke be the bloke, but they only lists Connections 2 and 3. I pyrated a few of the first series offen the TV. The reception around here makes them not a pleasure to watch.

Skavenger, Iffins ye will swaggar over to wetcanvas.com ye might find a forum dedicated ta fabrics, dyein' an such.

[Skavenger]

Thank you Dreadlocke ... they do have a wearable art forum, so fingers crossed...

[kass]

Skavenger,

At the bottom of this page, you'll find a bunch of books in the bibliography. If I had to choose one for a beginner, I would recommend Jenny Dean's "Wild Colour". It's a terrific book with lots of colour photos of how the dye experiments come out. And it has a couple of projects in there especially designed for the first-time natural dyer. Very easy to get hooked.

From there, I'd get a copy of Liles book. He's a reenactor who natural dyed his own uniforms. Very historical. But best to read Dean first and have some fun with it.

[Tall Paul]

Whilst we are on this subject, I read somewhere, that during the 17th Century, grey and red, (I am assuming that this was a subdued maroon red rather than a bright military red,) were the commonest colours for Navy costume, and dark blue was only adopted by the navy when the cost of dyes in this colour became more affordable. (This would tie in with the Admiralty practice of keeping expense down at all costs.)

Anyone know anything about this?

[Skavenger]

Thanks once again for your help Kass. I'll have to make sure your tankard is topped at at SWPF

[kass]

Actually a more subdued maroon red is a more expensive dye than the tomato soup red produced by madder, the commonest and cheapest red dye.

But I digress... I have not heard the explanation that blue dye became cheaper and that's why the navy adopted blue in later years. Unfortunately this does not hold water for two reasons:

#1 -- Blue dye (from indigo or woad) is one of the cheapest and most readily available dyes. As far back as the Middle Ages, blue was used to indicate common status in paintings because it was that cheap.

#2 -- The most common colours in the 1706 through 1740 Slop Contracts are red and grey. But in the 1663, 1690, 1694, and 1702 Slop Contracts, there is no mention of red or grey at all. But there is mention of blue shirts and blue suits.

So they used blue quite a bit in the 17th century, then switched to red and grey in the beginning of the 18th century, then switched back to blue by mid-century.

[kass]

Thanks once again for your help Kass. I'll have to make sure your tankard is topped at at SWPF

Skavenger, I'd call you a gentleman, but that would just be silly!

If I think about it, I'll bring some of my natural dyed stuff to SWPF.

[michaelsbagley]

Wow,

Madder and Woad... Blue and red seem to go back further than the Middle Ages... I've sat through many a lecture on dyeing in the Dark Ages (and actually learned something in doing so ), and those two dyes with Weld (which produces yellow or green depending on how you use it) seem to be the most common dye stuffs used by most European cultures throughout most of history based on what Kass is saying here. Indigo was used in the Dark Ages as well, but was more scarce and a little more costly than Woad, and hence was more of an "Upper Class thing" (in the Dark Ages at least).

So was Weld still used this late in history as well? Or did it fall out of use sometime in the seven or eight hundred years between the late Dark Ages and the GAoP?

I'm actually happy that some of my knowledge of early period re-enacting is carrying over...

[blackjohn]

So they used blue quite a bit in the 17th century, then switched to red and grey in the beginning of the 18th century, then switched back to blue by mid-century.

That whole red state/blue state thing rears its ugly head early on, eh?

[michaelsbagley]

So they used blue quite a bit in the 17th century, then switched to red and grey in the beginning of the 18th century, then switched back to blue by mid-century.

That whole red state/blue state thing rears its ugly head early on, eh?

It seems the red/blue state thing began before the country even began...

Makes me wonder why we never colour labelled the Canadian provinces?

[kass]

Oh you guys...

Hey, ever wonder why the primary colours are red, yellow and blue? It's because of madder, weld and indigo/woad! Really. I swear.

Michael, you're right that madder and woad were used long before the Middle Ages. We have ancient (I mean pre-historic) textiles that show signs of madder, woad and weld dyes. They are the oldest and the most prevalent dyes in Europe. It's just that for the purpose of this forum, there wasn't any point in going back to the beginning of time. And while blue was a cheap dye, it was an expensive paint (ground lapis was used), so that's why you don't see blue paint way back when.

Kinda belies the whole "if they had the paint, they had the dye" argument that you often hear.

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Does anyone have a date for when the laws to protect the Woad industry in England were enacted? Wasn't there also big importation of woad to the southern colonies in the late 1600's-early 1700's as a way to try and decrease the dependence on Indian indigo as well?

[kass]

Oh Chole! You're gonna make me go look stuff up...

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Oh Chole!  You're gonna make me go look stuff up... 

Yes, yes I am. :) You know how my memory is. That tidbit is from the pre-notes era & for the life of me I can't find where it came from.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I don't think you can go wrong with pastel colors for late 17th early 18th century.

Yellows, beige, brown, pink, light blue.....

Greg