A functional cutlass

[Blind Pew]

This is simply not true.  Fatigue and work hardening are directly affected by alloy and carbon content of the blade.

The ring is simply caused by proper fit and in a lesser way by internal stress of the material. 

I make hundreds of cutlass each year and every one rings like a bell.  Almost every sword we make sees steel on steel abuse.  The ability of the blade to handle regular abuse over a long period of time is completely the responsibility of the smith to chose correct alloys and hardening/tempering based on the expected use.

With machetes, the blades that ring are the best. These are made from spring steel.

I've cleared a good bit of swamp in my day. A good thin spring steel blade will hold an edge better and longer than any dead steel blade.

I've even cut dead steel blades off using a spring steel blade. The thin spring steel blades make the best cutters, harden metal, and they offer less resistance when cutting. Even have cut down 4 inch hackaberry trees with one cut.

[CaptainJackRussell]

I agree.

Unfortunately a machete is not a combat weapon (even if you could use one for that purpose) and from it's complete shape it has nothing in common with a sword or even cutlass.

Marcus

[Mick MacAnselan]

In terms of which AC swords are appropriate for GAoP, the closest thing they do to a period "pirate" sword is their 17thC hanger:

Foxe,

Thanks! I'm thinking the hanger might be the way to go. Maybe a wee bit early, but I think I've seen pics of 18th century hangers that don't look much different. Apparently the blade is available either double-edged or back-edged. Any idea which is more appropriate? TIA.

[Fox]

Single edged is probably better, but there's really not a lot in it.

Those playing buccaneers might be interested in this:

Armour Class think it's a Dark Age scramasax, but what do they know?!

[Kenneth]

That looks like a machete.....

[kass]

Didn't someone say that machetes were appropriate for certain impressions in this time period? Or have I gone mad...

[michaelsbagley]

Hi all,

I'm still a little new to this forum, but I am an old hat at stage combat, someone in this string of posts recomended Armour Class swords as a great stage combat sword... An I have to give a great big "hell yeah" to Armour Class swords, they do custom work, but it takes forever to order from them, some former acquaintences of mine had to wait almost 9 months for their orders.

Ultimately for stage combat with lots of blade on blade contact, a dulled blade and a rounded tip are ideal for safety reasons, also spring steel is best, as it offers the strength to hold up to blade on blade contact, and yet the flexibility and spring needed to look and act in a realistic manner. A good temper is paramount to this! But a proper metal worker or swords smith could explain that a ton better than I could. Stainless steel should be avoided like the plague, as it is generally brittle for steel, and does not hold up well... High carbon steels (most of them anyway), also tend to be (but not always) more brittel as well, and should be avoided.

Someone mentioned earlier in this chain of posts

"How come"fighting" swords all look so crude? Soft steel thats bulky and have no cling sound when they hit? Did pirates carry mushy swords so they would't get a ding in em'?"

My answer to this would be (and this is my opinion only), fighting swords tend to be crude and basic to help keep them strong... fancy tends to equate to delicate, and delicate tends to lead to fragile.... And from what I have seen, most historic swords (which the functional blades tend to be based more on) tended to be more plain than your fancy LoTR or other more fantasy based leaf shaped blades etc. As for dings in the blade, notches in the blade are a safety hazzard for theatrical combatants, as notches turn a relatively safe dull blade into a semi sharp saw blade... Not cool when you are just trying to look like you are killing each other rather than actually trying to kill each other. This is also why most theatrical combatants avoid using alluminum swords, as alluminum notches too easily, and becomes a safety hazzard in a real rush. For those that do medieval stuff that wear armour, alluminum is less of a problem, but I would not want either my skin or my clothes/garb to fall prey to the ravages of a nicked alluminum blade, and pirates don't look roght in too much armour.

Hope this information/opinions comes as useful to someone...

[Benjamin Hornigold]

This past Wednesday(11/15/06)I was talking with one of the sales reps at MRL regarding the Dutch Cutlass which is being re-issued in the Spring,2007,catalog.

She informed me that their products were;

1.)Made of steel with a high carbon content.

2.)Heat tested and tempered.

3.)Had a full tang.

Now,there's an old adage to the effect that a fool and his money are soon parted.And,let's face it,she's out to make a sale.

Can anybody out there give me the way to find out if I'm being told the truth.You aid in this matter will be appreciated genuinely

[Fox]

Unless I'm much mistaken the Dutch cutlass is a product of Windlass, the quality of whose blades has already been discussed. Also, it's a shapr. Some people don't mind combat with sharps, but even the best quality blade is going to get nicked and knackered if it has an edge.

The Dutch cutlass is a beautiful piece, and for non-combat demo is a great looking sword, but I wouldn't fight with it.

NOT that I've handled one myself mind you, I'm only going on the information I can glean from the web.

[Capt. Sterling]

Museum Replicas has a Scottish Cutlass. They say it is based on period prints that show basket hilts married to cutlass blades... anyone know of such prints and are they true to the GAoP period?

[Fox]

I've never seen anything quite like that

Again sharp, and again Windlass.

[Capt. Sterling]

I've never seen anything quite like that

Again sharp, and again Windlass.

It would have been for dress only, but if you've never heard of something like that... makes me wonder about it to start with...

[Fox]

I have come across shorter weapons with basket or proto-basket hilts, but there's this great fallacy that says basket hilts are Scottish - and they needn't be necessarily.

I've never seen anything quite like that sword...

[kerrystagmer]

just for the record....

MRL is OWNED by Windlass Steel of India. This should speak for itself.

enough on that.....

While I basicly feel that the steel used by Armour Class is a little too high in carbon content for extreme abuse, I do not know of anyone who is unhappy with AC's product. From what I have seen here in the states, I would have to say they are very well constructed and nicely finished. Most of the people I know who own their product do beat it about and are quite happy.

There is no reason for stage blades to be poorly made, the only real issue on shape is whether you can live with a point or not. Personally I make everything with a point so the profile is correct. I hate seeing a rounded "point" but some groups banging steel around require it for safety, certainly understandable.

[Hawkyns]

Museum Replicas has a Scottish Cutlass.  They say it is based on period prints that show basket hilts married to cutlass blades... anyone know of such prints and are they true to the GAoP period?

http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=94

http://www.myarmoury.com/swor_pmc_sinc.html

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/baskethiltedswords.shtml

http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=93

http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=95

http://www.merctailor.com/originals.php?original_pk=88

Here's an assortment of originals and good repros of the Sinclair Saber

Hawkyns

[michaelsbagley]

just for the record....

MRL is OWNED by Windlass Steel of India. This should speak for itself.

enough on that.....

While I basicly feel that the steel used by Armour Class is a little too high in carbon content for extreme abuse, I do not know of anyone who is unhappy with AC's product. From what I have seen here in the states, I would have to say they are very well constructed and nicely finished. Most of the people I know who own their product do beat it about and are quite happy.

There is no reason for stage blades to be poorly made, the only real issue on shape is whether you can live with a point or not. Personally I make everything with a point so the profile is correct. I hate seeing a rounded "point" but some groups banging steel around require it for safety, certainly understandable.

That's interesting, this is the first comment I've heard about an Armour Class swords being too high in the carbon department...

Having done the whole Viking Age rebated steel thing for about five years, and having worked with a few people that used Armour class swords on a very regular basis, I would have thought this would have been something I would have heard of before... And with the Viking age combat, it's not only blade on blade contact, but there is also shields and metal shield bosses to take into account... That and the fact that many of the Vking age rebated steel combatants play pretty rough.

Either way, I've heard that the Armour Class swords (the blades anyway) are guaranteed for life, and know someone whose AC sword broke, and was replaced. The guy sent his handle fitting back, and was shipped back his fitting on a brand new blade. I also had the chance to use an 9 year old AC sword as a loaner when I broker my Paul Chen practical blade.

The rounded point isn't very visually appealing, but having been on the receiving end on many hundreds of thrusts, it is a VERY neccessary evil... I'm guessing a rounded point on a cutlass or similarly styled blade would look even goofier than a rounded point on a Dark Age style sword does.

[Hawkyns]

I've never seen anything quite like that

Again sharp, and again Windlass.

Agreed- the hilt style looks way too 18th c for what they are trying to repro. Just a bastardisation I guess, based on what everyone *thinks* a Scottish basket hilt looks like.

BTW- this appears to be the same blade that I have on my shell guard cutlass that I bought from them 10 years ago or so. The blade is bloody monstrous. 5/16 at the spine of the ricasso and 2+ inches wide. anyone planning to actually swing this had better have damn strong wrists. I did if for a couple of batles when the SK came to the States, but I paid for it for a few days after.

Hawkyns

[Fox]

While I basicly feel that the steel used by Armour Class is a little too high in carbon content for extreme abuse, I do not know of anyone who is unhappy with AC's product.

I suspect this is a technical objection rather than a practical one. For those less knowledgeable on the chemical make-up of steels (me included) the important thing is that AC blades get fewer (if any) dings in them than any other sword I've ever seen in 15 years of reenactment. And trust me, I've put my AC blades through some serious abuse!

[michaelsbagley]

While I basicly feel that the steel used by Armour Class is a little too high in carbon content for extreme abuse, I do not know of anyone who is unhappy with AC's product.

I suspect this is a technical objection rather than a practical one. For those less knowledgeable on the chemical make-up of steels (me included) the important thing is that AC blades get fewer (if any) dings in them than any other sword I've ever seen in 15 years of reenactment. And trust me, I've put my AC blades through some serious abuse!

I'm actually curious as to how many different Pirate groups/re-enactors actually do the whole steel sword fighting stuff. I've not seen anything but the staged (and obviously so) fighting at the Renn-Faires that I have been to (mostly in the form of battle chess). Having experience with live steel combat, I would be incredibly curious as to how common it is in GAoP re-enacting.... And if it is reasonably common, what groups are doing it and where they are located...

Sorry if this line of questioning is starting to veer off into something that may be better suited to another thread.....

More on topic, besides the Armour Class sword mentioned earlier in this thread, are there other good dulled steel combat GAoP swords out there that would hold up?

Basically to me an ideal sword would have a dulled edge, rounded point, and a blade that can handle some real abuse, but is also historically accurate to the GAoP.

[jim hawkins]

Cant speak for any other but I know we (pirate brethren) do heavy sword fighting. I just broke a cutlass at the last event. I'm an old steel fighter from medieval reenactment. I prefer the sword fighting over the firing of boom sticks.

[kass]

Well, we (the Pirate Brethren in PA/MD/VA) do it. We have guys in our group who've done sword fighting in other periods, so when we started doing GAoP, we just changed swords.

Bob and Jim Fighting 162sm.jpg

Bob and Jim Fighting 132sm.jpg

Bob and Jim Fighting 008sm.jpg

BobJim.jpg

Jimjustcan.jpg

Neo.jpg

Bob (the one in the grey short jacket) is fighting with my Armour Class shell and ring-guard hanger that I just purchased. It broke Jim's mortuary hilt sword shortly after the last pictures were taken.

I'm recommending Jim get an Armour Class mortuary hilt next time. :)

[michaelsbagley]

Cant speak for any other but I know we (pirate brethren) do heavy sword fighting. I just broke a cutlass at the last event. I'm an old steel fighter from medieval reenactment. I prefer the sword fighting over the firing of boom sticks.

I just took a quick gander at the Brethren's web site... Nice stuff... and some good pictures of sword fighting too...

But the million dollar question still lies as "where are you guys located?"

The only group I have found that is any where near where I am (Central Ohio) is a group that is centered in Michigan and Indiana...

(anyone)Feel free to IM or email me if you may be able to help steer me to some like minded folks if you can assist.

Again, I beg the pardon of all here for this post divirging from the posted topic...

But to bring things back on topic, what swords (makes, model etc.) do you and the other members of the Brethren use?

[kass]

We're centered in the DC area, Michael. But we have members in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and Virginia.

I have the AC shell and ring guard hanger and my husband has the AC mortuary hilt (or rather Foxe has it at the moment... ).

I, of course, am a proper woman and don't swordfight.

I find using my hands so much more effective!

[Filch]

For the first time foxe I must agree with you.

I might be young but living with pirates for 11 years does teach you some things

[Filch]

well mistress kass

mabye one can teach you