SHIRT INFO REPOSITORY

[Gentleman of Fortune]

From the red shirt thread in PLUNDER....

Well, then I should ask instead....

"Do you have, in your notes, personal collection, or links on the web, refrences to or pictures of GAoP era shirts with collars like that on the red shirt that this topic is about?"

Just looking for shirts in general... for ones we can see

5 shirts and all are band or as I would say, standing collar shirts. Now, this is a 1731 refrence, so it could be claimed to be out of bounds, but, since we have used this picture in the past to support ASC clothing, I figured what the heck....

To get a better look,

http://www.nmm.ac.uk/mag/images/700/BHC2567_700.jpg

Then there is

Our old friend Van Mieris. This is a good GAoP date at 1718. Of the two men that we can see... one definately has a band collar'd shirt (standing), the other one probably does (seated center), but it could be a colarless shirt too...

A better look is here

http://www.rijksmuseum.nl/images/aria/sk/z/sk-a-4941.z

Van Meiris is great... always coming through when you need him!

This is from 1690 and called "Militiaman with Empty Glass"

Now this is cool on many different levelsbut for these purposes, I see another band collar shirt, striped ta boot!

This is from 1700 if I am not mistaken

So...

I'll amend my statement posted earlier which was

In general, GAoP shirts did not have fall collars, there were stand up collars...

and say instead.

There may be evidence of a fall down collar for GAoP use, but MOST of the time, sailors/gentlemen/males are depicted with neckkerchiefs covering their collar, so it cannot be determined.

That being said. In the period pictures I have seen, where it can be determined, they are more than likely band collars.

Now maybe I might not be looking in the right places, and i would welcome anyones insight into this....

But....

In my research, the band collar is the most common, and at least, its one that can be supported by readily available online sources. I would also add that one of the most respected pattern drafters of our period has provided a free shirt pattern that includes a band collar.

So, if I am going to get a shirt, I would go for one that we know existed and everyone can agree on.

And hopefully made of ticken or checked linen.

Greg

[Patrick Hand]

"Militiaman with Empty Glass"

Now this is cool on many different levels but for these purposes, I see another band collar shirt, striped ta boot!

Are you sure that it is a striped shirt, and not just the gathering of the shirt into the coller? I can't tell, because of the size of the picture..... Is there someplace to see a larger version?

[Silkie McDonough]

Aye. Looks like a gather to me also.

[Ransom]

I think the originator of this question - red shirt? - is probably thinking "Oi, sorry I asked."

and has gone off, red shirt and black jeans, to a really fun party, while the costume debate rages on.

I mean no offence to Kass or GoF, fonts of knowledge that they are, but come on guys, the poor sod probably just wanted to have a little pirate fun.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

False Ransom

I understand what you are saying...

But at the same time, whenever one posts a question to a forum, as soon as you press "submit", it takes on a life of its own.

And, considering where the question was asked, i find it hard to believe that someone would not expect a range of answers that agreed and disagreed.

What often happens is a "question" that is asked, sparks debate amongst folks that have researched or have thought about privately before (and just possibly come to different conclusions).

I might add that there are very few completed works that cover 1680-1720 clothing for sailors in detail, and most of what is written is ancillary to another era of fashion or another "class" of clothing.

So, while the "intent" of the original question may be surpassed, the spirit of research and debate moves it to another level, which may bore the the original poster to tears.

Plus, if you noticed, i move the shirt debate away from the original question of the red shirt so that we could continue the discussion without boring folks to tears.

And finally

I have a REAL hard time coming out and saying something is shit. What I would rather do, is surround the item in question with original references and let the poster come to his own conclusion whether the item is authentic or inauthentic.

It makes better reading, and a better learning experience than,

"That shirt is a piece of shit."

Greg

aka

GoF

aka

7th Level Asshole

[blackjohn]

From a moderator point of view, GoF did the right thing. I see no problem with him starting a different thread here. In fact, isn't that the way these things are supposed to work? If he had posted these musing under the original thread in Plunder I probably would've have split them out and sent them here.

:)

[Ransom]

As I said, I meant no offence, and I value very much the knowledge that GoF and Kass pass on to us. I have visited your other web sites often.

And splitting the topic away from the original Plunder forum was the correct way to proceed.

However, I think the fact that, other than his original question, the person never posted again, either to thank you both for the information, or to ask more questions, may be an indication that he was so intimidated that he gave up on the whole idea of pyrate fun.

I may be wrong, but I don't remember anyone asking him what type of event/party the shirt was for, whether or not he was even interested in strict historical acuracy, and how much money he could afford to spend. Instead, he was hit by a three page tidal wave of debate over the historical acuracy of band vs foldover collars, dropped vs not-dropped shoulder seams, ruffles vs no ruffles, stripes vs no stripes, and told the item he was thinking of was tacky and looked like crap. Hardly the best way to welcome someone to the fun of reenactment.

[Fox]

At the risk of provoking an argument, and going waaaay O/T. Of the 34 replies to the shirt thread Kass and GoF racked up a total of 8 between them. No more than 4 posts were debating historical accuracy. There were far more posts giving helpful directions to better and cheaper shirts and hats, and frankly if someone doesn't want to hear that the shirt they're thinking of buying is crap and overpriced then they shouldn't ask whether it's a good deal - I kinda assumed they asked because they wanted to know...

So, let's lay off and get back to discussing shirts shall we?

[Ransom]

Personal views expressed. Foxe's point taken. I bow out with grace.

[Patrick Hand]

I finished my new hand finished checked linen shirt in time for Kerney Park this last weekend.

On this one I make the coller wider than the band coller that I usuly make... It closes with a single button, and then folds back onto itself..... (I can always cut it down later) But with a band coller, when wearing a neckcloth, it always slips off the coller.... I wanted to see if making a wider worked any better.... It is a good width if I was going to be wearing a stock.....

[kass]

I had a thought the other day on this subject. I have a portrait of George Washington dressed as an officer in some British regiment (I forget which) dated 1772. In the portrait, he's wearing a neck stock exactly like those we see in the GAoP. Now, we can't see his collar at all, it being covered entirely by the stock (much like the portraits in the GAoP). But we have a lot of extant shirts from the 1770s and they all have fold-over collars.

That's not to say that there are always fold-over collars underneath the stocks of the GAoP. But if there are fold-over collars underneath the stocks in the 1770s, there could also be fold-over collars underneath the stocks earlier.

I know that in the 1770s, things really shook out and we had less variation in styles than we did at the turn of the 18th century. But that's exactly why I'm not willing to discount the existance of fold-over collars in the GAoP. Plus, they wear better underneath stocks.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I am curious as to whether Pat Hands Has a digital camera. He is always making stuff and talking about it... but we rarely get to see the results unless someone ELSE catches him at an event.

Does your Pirate Santa need to send you a digital camera?

just asking

Greg

aka

GoF

[Patrick Hand]

Rats..... OK..... give me a few days......

I will post some O' me photos (whoops sorry Kass bout th' Pyrate typeing)

OK... Yah.... I know th' details do be important...... ain't that a lot o' wot we be arguing 'bout.........