Knitting in 17th/ 18th century

[Edward T. Porter]

Ahoy!

Stimulated through Greg´s post of selling Monmouth Caps, I started some researches about knitting works and made my own Monmouth Cap.

Besides: My Mom is much better in knitting than me

Ceeping my deer Mother busy (and of course to get some new accurate pieces to wear), I´ve found patterns, pictures and instructions for several types of Headwear, Socks, gloves etc.

References I´ve found on Mara Riley´s page were very helpfull.

I didn´t found references for men´s Jackets/ Cardigans or a Vest... only for a knitted undershirt.

Questions:

What about the mens? Didnt they were knitted Jackets Coats or Vests?

Has somebody of you any of the refenrence- books listed on this page and can help me out with some pictures?

Can somebody help me with other references of paintings and pictures?

Would it be okay to use other patterns and make knitted stuff from it?

Note: Maybe my English isn´t good enough and I´ve only searched by false keywords...

Best wishes

Ed Porter/ Bela

[kass]

Ed,

The reason you're not finding any information is because there are few knitted objects extant. The men's undershirts that Mara has on her site belonged to a King (Charles I, if I remember correctly, and were worn at his execution).

Mara's site is really the best source on 18th century knitting I can think of. The definitive book on the subject is Rutt's "History of Handknitting" which you should be able to find on Amazon or through Mara's site.

There is a great danger, however, in using patterns for fabric clothing and making knitted versions of them. There's no evidence that anything and everything was knitted. Knitted objects are often of quite a different profile and construction than woven ones. They aren't interchangeable. So if you just want a funky knitted wardrobe, go right ahead. But if you want to have knitted things that actually existed in the Golden Age of Piracy, stick with what we know. There is plenty of documentation on knitted hats, undershirts, and stockings.

There are some pictures of seamen wearing what we would call knit sweaters or jumpers. But there is NO evidence of them wearing knitted jackets or coats.

[blackjohn]

There are some pictures of seamen wearing what we would call knit sweaters or jumpers.

And as I recall there's an archaeological find too... it's lunchtime, and I'm getting ready to get more pototoes, then head back to class... if it wasn't for that, I'd look for the ref.

Suffice to say, I want one! A knit hoody would be sooo... warm!

[Capt. Sterling]

Empress,

Passed yer link on to Skittles. Needless to say she has died and gone to Heaven with it... and says thank you, thank you, thank you....

[Fox]

John, are you thinking of the knitwear recovered from the Red Bay whaling wreck? I was blathering on about it on the PB forum a while back (which reminds me, I must post photos of the reconstruction my mum did). If so, it dates to about 1600 so it's a bit early for GAoP.

Or are you thinking of something else I need to get my mum to knit me?

[Edward T. Porter]

Hi!

The men's undershirts that Mara has on her site belonged to a King (Charles I, if I remember correctly, and were worn at his execution).

You remember right, Kass. But she also wrote "some evidences" and that this is the most popular. With more information maybe this will work.

Rutt´s book is definetly on my "to buy" list!

Using paaterns for knitted versions: Canceled!

So if you just want a funky knitted wardrobe, go right ahead.

Nope... that´s not my intention. I just try to figure out what is possible, usual or just a no-go.

There are some pictures of seamen wearing what we would call knit sweaters or jumpers.

Where to find?

As I said before: My biggest problem is that i´m not trained in such researches...and I have to search in english, not in my mother tongue. But hopefully there a people who would like to share their knowledge and sources

Maybe this is a thing of interest for some of you:

17th-Century Knitting Patterns. $19.95 WGB Publication, PO Box 517, Saunderstown, RI 02874

Amazon

[kass]

Thanks Ed. I already have that book. It's great. But it's almost 100 years too early for us. It's put out by Plimouth Planation which is a living history site for the early 17th century. Quite different from the late.

For pictures of men in knitted garments, I'm going to have to do some searching for you. I remember Foxe posting pictures at some point, but I don't remember what thread they were in, or even if they were on this forum...

[Capt. Sterling]

Any evidence of knitted fingerless gloves??

[Patrick Hand]

I don't remember what thread they were in, or even if they were on this forum...

There was some talk about sailors wearing sweaters under their shirts.... but it was one of those... "I got to look up the reference...."

Didn't Blackjohn post a picture from a painting with someone wearing "a hoodie" ?

But that was all a long time ago.......maybe in a knit cap thread...... sorry that I'm not more help on this one.......

[blackjohn]

John, are you thinking of the knitwear recovered from the Red Bay whaling wreck? I was blathering on about it on the PB forum a while back (which reminds me, I must post photos of the reconstruction my mum did). If so, it dates to about 1600 so it's a bit early for GAoP.

Or are you thinking of something else I need to get my mum to knit me?

Ed, I'm fairly certain it was from our period. I'm also fairly certain I saw a reference to it within the last week or so. Which means it may have been something I was reading on TAMU's site, or a Florida State arch site. Tomorrow if I get some free time during the day I'll dig around a bit. Or if I see Mike (my 'boss'), I'll ask him, since he did his master's thesis on piracy and underwater archaeology.

As an aside, I mentioned to him last Friday I'd love to get ahold of the arch report from the Whydah. He said, "I just threw that out." My jaw dropped. "Yeah, two volumes, each about 'this' thick."

[blackjohn]

I don't remember what thread they were in, or even if they were on this forum...

There was some talk about sailors wearing sweaters under their shirts.... but it was one of those... "I got to look up the reference...."

Didn't Blackjohn post a picture from a painting with someone wearing "a hoodie" ?

But that was all a long time ago.......maybe in a knit cap thread...... sorry that I'm not more help on this one.......

Yes, I did. It was a Canaletto... the pic of the Venetian gondoleers. The topic was... red hats as I recall.

[blackjohn]

Re: knit sweater, it must've been while skimming through From A Watery Grave.

Found this thread on the Pirate Brethren forum.

Knit thread

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Any evidence of knitted fingerless gloves??

aye, took the question right out of my mouth Captain Sterling.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Ed Porter...

What is your native tongue then?

Greg

[Edward T. Porter]

For pictures of men in knitted garments, I'm going to have to do some searching for you. I remember Foxe posting pictures at some point, but I don't remember what thread they were in, or even if they were on this forum...

That would be great, Kass... thank you!

Okay, so we got knitted sweaters...how about knitted smocks?

I´ve fond this one a few weeks ago, but just can´t remember where.

It´s dataed about 1600:

Greg: My native tounge is German.

There are several things more flying through my mind... but right now I don´t have the time to put them into sentences everyone will understand... our "handicraft-weekend" is just starting!

[kass]

I kinda meant knitted smocks when I said it, Ed. Sorry I wasn't clear. What they called "smocks" look like modern sweaters to me, you see.

From writing on the wall behind the mannequin, I'd take a guess that this picture was taken in French-speaking Canada. Ring any bells?

[Fox]

Yes, it's the very smock from the 1600 Red Bay whaling wreck I was talking about earlier - and that's the very pic I posted to the PB forum...

That photo is actually of a reconstruction which the museum folk had made based on fragments recovered from the wreck.

My mother recently finished a copy of it, but in plain brown without the stripes. I'll post photos when I get round to taking some.

[Edward T. Porter]

After building some chests with my mates this weekend, I´ve spended some ours to go through a huge list of paintings on the Web Gallery of Art.

But I think time wasn´t waisted, cause I´ve found some more Hoodies .

Go to "Artists" in the navigation bar, for period choose "Baroque" enter the "get list button" and I guide you to the paintings I mean.

Page 1

AVERCAMP, Hendrick: Ice Scene (ca. 1610) - The boy in the lower right corner.

Page 2

BERCHEM, Nicolaes: A Southern Harbour Scene - The guy in the lower right corner with red cap. See also the man with barrel on his shoulder!

Page 3

BRIL, Paul: The Port - The guy in the lower right corner with red cap

CANALETTO, Paintings (1730-31): Riva degli Schiavoni: Looking East - Man near the lower middle, red cap, looking at the river

CANALETTO, Paintings (1730-31): The Grand Canal and the Church of the Salute - lower middle, sitting man in boat... also shown in detailpicture

- Also posted by Black John in PB- Forum -

CANALETTO, Paintings (1730-31): Return of the Bucentoro to the Molo on Ascension Day (detail)

- Also posted by Black John in PB- Forum -

CANALETTO, Late works (1755-68): Palazzo Ducale and the Piazza di San Marco

Page 16

VRANCX, Sebastian: January (detail) - The boy on the ice, lifting his left leg

There a some more pictures I´ve found , but the details aren´t good enough to say finally they´re wearing Hoodies.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Thanks for the links and thoughtful research!

Now, the trick is figuring out if they are cloth or knitted...

I am curious as to what a pattern would look like for such a thing.

Greg

aka

GoF

[Edward T. Porter]

Cloth or knitted..well that´s the tough question.

To me it looks quite similar to a woolen smock/ workers shirt that´s hooded... And as is know, you can use a shirt pattern to make one.

Some thoughts from patternmakers would be helpfull, I guess... Kass?

What`s about the picture with spanish sailor cloth you have on your homepage, Greg? Wasn´t there a hooded jacket? For me it looks similar, too...

It woul be such a cool thing to have a Hoodie like those...only for the look from the others, wearing such a "modern piece of garb"

[Fox]

Some caveats for the authenticity minded.

With the exception of the Canalettoes those paintings all considerably pre-date the GAoP (doesn't bother me, they're great resources for my Elizabethan/Jacobean stuff), mostly by about a century or so.

Canaletto is period at least, but one has to bear in mind that Mediterranean culture was not necessarily the same as Atlantic culture, and Venice particularly had its own set of fashions etc. So, if you're playing a Venetian pirate then great, but if you're playing an Anglo-American pirate then Canaletto is a dubious source to be using.

[kass]

To add a bit to what Foxe is saying -- there's a definite distinction in this period between the fashions of Catholic countries like Spain and Italy and Protestant countries like England. It may sound odd to us nowadays, but it was almost a statement of belief which country's fashions you followed. There are period accounts that go so far as to mock the Spanish and Italians for wearing such weird "behind the times" fashions.

Ed, being that you're in Germany, are you seeking to portray a German pirate of the period? You might want to lean towards Dutch paintings for your visual reference...

[Edward T. Porter]

So what´s fact?

- We have kind of Hoodies before the GAoP

- We have kind of Hoodies in GAoP in the Mediteranians/ Venice

- We have different fashions between the confessions

Why should there not have been Hoodies within this time period?

Why was an anglo-american pirate not supposed to have carried this?

( They´re on the Seven Seas, go to many different harbours/ Countries, buy/ use native products, capture ships from different countries and take/ use the garments from their oponents.)

- Of course i´ts not a proof, but it sounds quite possible -

@Kass: Nope. I try to portrait a common anglo- american sailor/ pirate... like all the other period pirates in germany

[Fox]

Well, here's the rub.

Yes, we have pictures of pre-GAoP seamen wearing hoodies. We also have pictures of seamen from the same period wearing ruffs, but you wouldn't wear a ruff for GAoP reenactment would you?

Yes, we have pictures of Venetian boatmen wearing hoodies, but we also have pictures of them punting gondolas. Are you going to have a gondola as your ship's boat?

Fashions change, from era to era, and from place to place. It would certainly be possible for a seaman to pick up a hoodie from a Venetian gondolier, but how common would it have been?

It's your outfit, you can wear what you like and nobody here will tell you otherwise, but if your aim is to portray "a common anglo- american sailor/ pirate", then using pictures of Venetian gondoliers for your source is the wrong way to go.

(Now, why am I thinking of bucket boots? )

[blackjohn]

It's your outfit, you can wear what you like and nobody here will tell you otherwise, but if your aim is to portray "a common anglo- american sailor/ pirate", then using pictures of Venetian gondoliers for your source is the wrong way to go.

Unless through research one is somehow able to bridge that gap. Then it is perfectly fine. And to me, that's what this is really all about. It's about discovery. And I don't like to paint things in black and white. Thus, I don't like to trust any one single source, but would much rather rely on a combination of sources, hopefully with archaeological evidence at the top of the list.