Powder monkeys

[Francois]

It crossed my mind when we were doing a black powder demo on one of the ships we work on. One of the crew opened the topic of powder monkeys on the ship. I agree they were on Man of war ships working in the orlop deck and in the fields during land and fort battles. The question is. Did pirates deliberately take youngsters to do the work of a powder monkey? Would they tolerate a child on board? Would they want another mouth to feed? They were superstitious about women being aboard. Did they feel the same way about children?

François

[Patrick Hand]

I was wondering about this the other day...

In The articles of Bartholomew Roberts'

VI. No boy or woman to be allowed amongst them. If any man shall be found seducing any of the later sex and carrying her to sea in disquise he shall suffer death.

I thought child labor was an accepted practice.

How old was the kid that went down with the Whydah?

[Francois]

My point exactly. We use the same articals when taking over a ship for the pirate sails we do. Thats when I questioned it mysef.

Francois

[Fox]

I can think of a few examples of boys being found on pirate ships: When Joseph Bannister was captured by the Royal Navy (Captain Spragge?) some of the pirates were carried into Port Royal hanging by their necks from the Navy ship's yards. Two boys were hanging from the mizzen peak by their waists.

In the trial of John Baptist Jedre and others one of the defendants, John Baptist Jedre Jnr was defended with the following argument:

"...But, May it please your Honours, The Case of the young Lad at the Bar, John Baptist Junior, is distinguished from that of his Father, on account of his tender years ; being (as his Father informs me) not fourteen years of Age ; an Age which renders a Person incapable in the law, of committing any Crime so as to be punished with Death, he being set upon the same Foot with

a Mad man by my Lord [Coke?] upon List. Pag. 247. b. who says “That in “ Criminal Causes, as Felony, &c. the Act and Wrong of a Mad man shall not be imputed to him, for that in most Causes, [Aetus non facit recum, nisi Mens sit rea?] And he is [Amens (id est) fine mente?], without his Mind and Discretion,

And [Furiosum fols furore punitur?], A Mad man is only punished by his madness.And so it is of an Infant, until he be of the Age of Fourteen, which in Law is accounted the Age of Discretion.

It cannot be expected I should produce any Evidence of the Age of this Lad, who was born and educated in the Woods among the Wild and Salvage Indians, where no Register of Births or Burials is kept ; he knows not his own Age, but by the Information of his Father, who here declares in publick Court,

his Son is but Fourteen this Fall ; there is no Evidence to disprove him in this Assertion, and where the Scale is but even, Your Honours will give the Ballance in favor of Life.

Your Honours will likewise be pleased to consider the great Influences a Father hath upon his Son, not only in his Example but precepts, as corrupt Nature is prone enough to evil ; the Perswasions of a Father, or the fear of his Frouns and severe Corrections, back’d with his Example, are strong and powerful Instigators to do Evil..."*

Thomas Child was a 15 year old member of Charles Harris' crew

Pre-teen children might be a different matter (though I don't know how old the two "boys" captured with Bannister were).

*transcribed by Tony Malesic

[William Brand]

It is a question of perspective. A boy of ten now and a boy of ten during the early colonies are two different animals. Apprenticeships begin young. A young man might begin a trade at a very young age, which would serve as much as an education as a means of gain. Mortality rates of the time require that society place more trust in the young and younger. The youth of the past didn't often enjoy the luxury of growing up slowly.

Still, I would love to see this proved or disproved by material references. There doesn't seem to be too much on the subject during the GAOP.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I can think of a few examples of boys being found on pirate ships: When Joseph Bannister was captured by the Royal Navy (Captain Spragge?) some of the pirates were carried into Port Royal hanging by their necks from the Navy ship's yards. Two boys were hanging from the mizzen peak by their waists.

In the trial of John Baptist Jedre and others one of the defendants, John Baptist Jedre Jnr was defended with the following argument:

"...But, May it please your Honours, The Case of the young Lad at the Bar, John Baptist Junior, is distinguished from that of his Father, on account of his tender years ; being (as his Father informs me) not fourteen years of Age ; an Age which renders a Person incapable in the law, of committing any Crime so as to be punished with Death, he being set upon the same Foot with

a Mad man by my Lord [Coke?] upon List. Pag. 247. b. who says "That in " Criminal Causes, as Felony, &c. the Act and Wrong of a Mad man shall not be imputed to him, for that in most Causes, [Aetus non facit recum, nisi Mens sit rea?] And he is [Amens (id est) fine mente?], without his Mind and Discretion,

And [Furiosum fols furore punitur?], A Mad man is only punished by his madness.And so it is of an Infant, until he be of the Age of Fourteen, which in Law is accounted the Age of Discretion.

It cannot be expected I should produce any Evidence of the Age of this Lad, who was born and educated in the Woods among the Wild and Salvage Indians, where no Register of Births or Burials is kept ; he knows not his own Age, but by the Information of his Father, who here declares in publick Court,

his Son is but Fourteen this Fall ; there is no Evidence to disprove him in this Assertion, and where the Scale is but even, Your Honours will give the Ballance in favor of Life.

Your Honours will likewise be pleased to consider the great Influences a Father hath upon his Son, not only in his Example but precepts, as corrupt Nature is prone enough to evil ; the Perswasions of a Father, or the fear of his Frouns and severe Corrections, back'd with his Example, are strong and powerful Instigators to do Evil..."*

Thomas Child was a 15 year old member of Charles Harris' crew

Pre-teen children might be a different matter (though I don't know how old the two "boys" captured with Bannister were).

*transcribed by Tony Malesic

Opening old tread here

I remenber that Lowther had drummer boy in his crew but I cannot remember were read it...

[Daniel]

One of Henry Every's crew definitely mentioned a number of "boys" on the Fancy.

Exquemelin mentions boys in the buccaneer crews getting half a share because it was their duty to torch the old ship when the crew moved to a new one.

John King of the Whydah was reportedly between 8 and 11 years old when he joined Bellamy's crew.

Somewhere in Botting's The Pirates there is a contemporary description of a pirate issued by the authorities, maybe in Virginia, who was under 16 years old.

Thus, I surmise that Roberts' rule against boys on board was the exception, not the rule, among pirates.

[Mission]

Roberts had several unusual policies. Not impressing married men, making the men drink on deck at night with the hope that they wouldn't drink so much... (Remember trying to convince all the newbs that there was no universal "Code" back on piratesinfo, Daniel? I'll bet that came up once a week when the first POTC came out...)

I think William's point covers things quite thoroughly, which may be why this thread stopped when it did the last time. I have the feeling that ship's boys were so common that they didn't usually merit comment.

[Jib]

Did the concept of childhood have the same implications during the GAOP as it does today? We often see examples in the past of children being given roles that are beyond what is considered acceptable today (work and labor comes to mind).

[Hawkyns]

Remember that boys, until the age of 5 or so, were treated much as girls, even wearing smocks instead of breeches. "breeching', or getting their first pair of breeches, at about age 5, was one of the stages in life back then.

Hawkyns

Master Gunner

[Fox]

Remember that boys, until the age of 5 or so, were treated much as girls, even wearing smocks instead of breeches. "breeching', or getting their first pair of breeches, at about age 5, was one of the stages in life back then.

Hawkyns

Master Gunner

Does the one follow from the other?

The wearing of smocks is good common sense based on the fact that children grow very quickly in their early years and keeping a boy in breeches would be expensive considering the cost of clothing and fabric, whereas a smock can be made one-size-fits-many, and can be easily altered to accomodate growth.

But I'm not convinced that means that they were 'treated as' girls.

[Hawkyns]

Clothing wise, it does make sense, I agree. But it does show up the difference in how children were considered in earlier times. 7 year olds down the mines and down the chimneys, just for example. I really wish there was more documentation on what Roberts concidered 'boys'.

As a point to the original post, I've been on several ships where getting into the magazine would be a major hassle for a grown man, or even a teen, at least doing it in the heat of battle. Small boys would be much more able to get in and out fast.

Hawkyns

Master Gunner.

[Fox]

I really wish there was more documentation on what Roberts concidered 'boys'.

There is. John Francois was captured in the final battle with HMS Swallow and brought to trial at Cape Corso. Witnesses deposed that he 'was the Boatswain of the Pyrate-ship's Boy, and that he employed him chiefly as Yeoman of his Stores, to hand up things as he called for them; that he was never allowed to go on board of Prizes, or had any Share among them, being under Age.'

In his own defence, Francois stated that at the time of his trial he was 17 years old and had been with the pirates for 23 months, during 'which time he has been kept in Servitude at the Pleasure of these Pyrates he was with, and not suffer'd to go on Shore'.

So Roberts' company were happy to take boys of 15, but even at 17 they were still considered under-age.

Swashbuckler, I suspect you may be thinking of John Fletcher, described as a 'boy' in his trial, who was forced into Low's company 'because he could play the violin.' He was eventually captured with Charles Harris's crew, but acquitted at trial. The drummer in that crew was John Bright, who made no mention of being a boy (but whose age is not recorded) and was executed. One of the other people acquitted at that trial was Thomas Jones, 'a Lad of about seventeen Years of Age', who was not permitted to carry arms by the pirates, suggesting that Low's company had similar age restriction to Roberts'.