Kaylee Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Okay, I admit. In preparing for our company "Pirate Day" party in a couple weeks, I've become obsessed. Tracking down pretties, digging out my childhood copy of "Treasure Island," and reading your site archives like crazy. Neat place! So um... a question for ye all. I see these pictures of lovely maps spread out on a table, with all sorts of brass instruments and suchlike. Some look like stuff from high school geometry escaped into the wild, others.. yeesh. I can't begin to recognize. Is there a good book you'd recommend I look at that covers the life, duties, and practices of a GAoP navigator? Particularly a nice picture book with lots of "this is a such and such. It's used in this manner to do this..." Thank you so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganTyre Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 One of my favorite intro's to period navigation is Latitude Hooks and Azimuth Rings: How to Build and Use 18 Traditional Navigational Instruments which has a run down of quite a few of the standard measuring tools of the time. The illustrations are somewhat crude but it is possible to build all the ones listed including the more esoteric looking ones like a nocturnal and backstaff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganTyre Posted September 4, 2006 Share Posted September 4, 2006 Also, this site http://www.humboldt.edu/~rap1/EarlySciInst...nts/RepInst.htm has some neat info. Most of it is too early for GAoP but fascinating none-the-less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Jack Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/solar...untime/expt.htm - build a simple sextant [depending on period, you could be building an octant or quadrant instead, but hey...] http://boatsafe.com/navigation/intronav.htm - dividers and parallel rulers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronometer - and finally, a Wikipedia page on the history of the ship's Chronometer. That should be most of the tools you find scattered about "on top of" images on nautical charts. Occasionally an actual compass as well. Most rarely: http://www.navyandmarine.org/planspatterns...ns/speedlog.htm - the chip log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn_Enigma Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Neither sextants nor octants were sed during the GAOP. Neither were chronometers. Quadrants, astrolabes, or backstaffs only. "The floggings will continue until morale improves!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Neither sextants nor octants were sed during the GAOP. Neither were chronometers. Christopher Huygens and Robert Holmes experimented with chronometers in the 1660s with favourable results, but they were certainly not widely adopted. While it would be extremely unlikely to find a chronometer on a GAoP ship (and I've certainly never ever come across reference to one) it would not be entirely impossible. Quadrants, astrolabes, or backstaffs only. And cross-staffs. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn_Enigma Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Christopher Huygens and Robert Holmes experimented with chronometers in the 1660s with favourable results, but ... Maybe, but at that time, chronometers were not widely used on board a ship. Granted, there is always a slim possibility, but until proven otherwise, let's not complicate matters and just assume that, generally speaking, none were used. And cross-staffs Technically perhaps, but the backstaff is an improved version of the cross-staff. If you mention it, one should also mention kamals and latitude hooks, in reverse chronological order. Even the astrolabe was not in much use during the GAOP, much less the quadrant. I mentioned them just for the sake of completeness. The backstaff was the instrument of choice for the discriminating navigator. "The floggings will continue until morale improves!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Jack Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Bearing in mind, of course, that the original post wasn't asking after GAOP appropriate gear -- it was a query as regards "all sorts of brass instruments and suchlike" found in popular images of "photos" of naval charts on rough-hewn table, and such like. All those "geometry" instruments are not GAOP back-staff but rather typically (a) sextant, ( dividers, © sometimes parallel ruler, (d) sometimes chronometer, (e) often compass. It's usually mid-1800s-era stuff in such illustrations. As all this appears not to be for an "authentic reenactment" ... ... Should there perhaps be a thread dedicated to the appropriate navigation instruments of the GAOP? https://pyracy.com/forums/index.php?showtop...4&hl=navigation https://pyracy.com/forums/index.php?showtop...3&hl=navigation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 5, 2006 Share Posted September 5, 2006 Cap'n Enigma, I quite agree with you on chronometers, in fact I said as much in my initial post. They would have been exceptionally unusual and I have never come across a single example of a GAoP era one. On cross-staffs I think it's a little misleading to compare them to latitude hooks et al. They were certainly in use well into the 17th century and I can think of at least one book which advocates them printed in the 1680s (though written earlier). Certainly, they were not as good as the back-staff, and perhaps not as common, but they were certainly in use. The Science Museum in London has a rather nice one dated 1687 and made in St. Malo, that great centre of French privateering. Even as late as 1767 the College Royale at Rouen requested a cross staff amongst other instruments. Here is a cross-staff made by Henrik Nordyk of Amsterdam in 1804. Or to stick it right into the GAoP here's a Van Keulen example, c. 1706. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Ok.... don't forget to play nice! Do any of you guys have pictures of yourselves using these items? That would be cool to see. Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Nah... Let's strip them to the waist, cover them in chocolate and watch them fight it out! Oh... Did I say that out loud? Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn_Enigma Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Glad you didn't say "... strip them to the waist, cover them in chocolate and leave them to the ants!" Hey! Where's that torture thread when you need it? "The floggings will continue until morale improves!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kass Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Why Captain Enigma! That never occured to me... Building an Empire... one prickety stitch at a time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn_Enigma Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Ok.... don't forget to play nice!Do any of you guys have pictures of yourselves using these items? That would be cool to see. Greg Here are a few pix of some of the instruments I've built: Backstaff Astrolabes Horometer "The floggings will continue until morale improves!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Hand Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Dang Capn_Enigma, those are nice ! Beautiful work....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganTyre Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Fantastic instruments. Any chance I can get you to post (or send direct to me) the general measurements and proportions for that backstaff? I've always wanted to try my hand at building one and I do have access to the tools and materials necessary. I had a copy of Latitude hooks, etc. but it was loaned out to someone who has since moved so I don't imagine I'll see it again. Besides, if I remember correctly I didn't care for the way the vanes attached. Seemed crude and at best fuctional (if I'm remembering correctly) and not necessarily historical though I don't have any real backstaffs to examine in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Nice work Enigma! I'll give you a fiver for the back-staff... :) Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Nooofrigginway. You actually made those astrolabs? Dude. Nice work. Seriously though, what would you have to charge to be interested in making another/GAoP era backstaff? Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn_Enigma Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Thank you Patrick, Morgan, Ed, Gentleman for your kind words. I appreciate it. GOF: Yes, I made the astrolabes. They incorporate even more work than is visible at first glance, as each astrolabe contains a number of plates for different latitudes. Morgan: Since I thought this might be of general interest, here is a pic of the backstaff with the measurements in centimeters. Most of the measurements are multiples or fractions of inches, but as I live in the metric world, it was easier for me to measure them this way. Note that the backstaff is 1.3 cm (half an inch) thick. The measurements are no absolute, each instrument was individual. For more information, I recommend that excellent book "Latitude Hooks and Azimuth Rings" by Dennis Fisher that has already been mentioned. With all my instruments I have used only materials and techniques that were available to the 17th century craftsman. The backstaff's parts are held together with mortise- and- tenon joints and bone glue. Oh, and Ed, while we are talking about materials: I'll give you a fiver for the back-staff... I don't think so... The frame is walnut, arcs are cherrywood and the sights are mahogany, so you'll have to up that a bit, I'm afraid. - unless you're talking a bag of doubloons, of course! "The floggings will continue until morale improves!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Five pounds, eight shillings and sixpence? Actually, seriously Cap'n, I'll echo GoF's comments here: Gimme a quote for making another, that's some fine craftsmanship looking at the photos and I'd be happy to throw some money at you for one as good. :) Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Sterling Posted September 6, 2006 Share Posted September 6, 2006 Would you mind giving us another picture, say close ups of the details ??? Just recieved a Nocturnal as a gift from my first officer and now we would like to tackle the backstaff... a friend of his does brilliant work.... as do you, just incredible!!!!... after the backstaff, he's going to try his hand at one of the spy glasses. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaylee Posted September 7, 2006 Author Share Posted September 7, 2006 Wow.. talented folk you all are, and smart as paint besides! Thank you so much for the education -- the "this is how the parallel rulers and dividers work" webpage was especially useful! I'll have to order that book -- thank you! So.. next question. I presume that the fundamentals are pretty much the same, but is there a book on the techniques and thoughts of period navigation? In looking about I see plenty of books on celestial navigation, but they all seem to be of a modern bent. I presume the fundamentals haven't changed much.. but is there something closer to a "this is how they did it way back when" book? Or failing that, any chance we can get the good Captain Enigma to write one, with pictures of all his work? Thanks so much for the education! -K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 You could read this one, written by one of the finest navigators of the age of sail - the guy who invented the back-staff in fact: John Davis: Seaman's Secrets Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capn_Enigma Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Dang, Foxe beat me to it! Beware however, that this is sometimes pretty heavy stuff. I own a reprint of the 1633 edition. The preface says it all: THE SEAMANSSECRETS Divided into two parts, wherein is taught the three kindes of Sayling, Horizontall, Pa= radoxall, and Sayling upon the great Circle. Also an Horizontall Tyde - Table for the easie finding of the ebbing and flowing of the Tydes, with a Regiment newly calculated for the finding of the Declination of the Sunne, and many other most necessary Rules and Instruments, not here= tofore set forth by any. Capt. Sterling: Any particular detail of the backstaff you want to have a looksie at? The sights? The scales? The joints? The maker's plate? GOF & Ed: I have considered selling them, but the exotic woods are very hard to come by. Originally, I wanted the frame to be ebony, but that was simply unobtainable. I have to admit that althogh I was a bit annoyed at first, I now think that is was a good thing in the end: The contrast between the ebony and the cherrywood arcs would probably have been too big. "The floggings will continue until morale improves!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Jack Posted September 7, 2006 Share Posted September 7, 2006 Just want to add my compliments to those of the crowd -- _beautiful_ work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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