Common Sailor Clothes

[silas thatcher]

after reading patrick hand's comment about pockets being " just so dang handy ( or useful, don't remember exactly which ) " i put pockets in all my garb... hand sewn, even !! but realizing that just because it makes sense, doesn't make them correct... but this pic helps me out with the nay sayers...as far as back pockets, i have absolutely no idea... never researched anything about those.... i stick with hip pockets and a haverasck to carry my hidden stuff...

[Mission]

Jokes are not nearly as funny when you have to explain them. (Of course, they're not at all funny when no one understands them.) Nevertheless, I will explain: it is an Izod alligator. The shirt looks like a polo shirt to me, especially the collar and gathering band at the base of the sleeves.

[Fox]

I wonder if this is a land-based v. maritime myth. Pictures of pockets on sailors' clothes turn up very frequently from the 16th century onwards, and it has been suggested numerous times that sailors invented pockets. I can't prove that statement but the alternative to a pocket is some kind of external pouch or bag which would be potentially fatal in the working environment of a ship, so it makes sense.

By the time of the 1706 slop contracts the jacket, ticking waistcoat, and all three types of breeches were specified as having 2-3 pockets.

However, military reenactors can be a little blinkered to maritime sources on occasion.

[jendobyns]

I wonder if this is a land-based v. maritime myth. Pictures of pockets on sailors' clothes turn up very frequently from the 16th century onwards, and it has been suggested numerous times that sailors invented pockets. I can't prove that statement but the alternative to a pocket is some kind of external pouch or bag which would be potentially fatal in the working environment of a ship, so it makes sense.

By the time of the 1706 slop contracts the jacket, ticking waistcoat, and all three types of breeches were specified as having 2-3 pockets.

However, military reenactors can be a little blinkered to maritime sources on occasion.

I just can't see the logic, if it's known that pockets existed in earlier extant garments, why one would think something so useful would be abandoned in a later period or not more broadly adopted outside it's original use.

And it goes to show that you cannot just rely on word of mouth when putting together your kit. This is particularly true for beginners. I will avoid stepping up on my soapbox by stopping here

[Capt. Sterling]

FWIW regarding pockets (no the items posted here are not sailors clothes)

[breeches] Serge (wool twill) breeches, probably once black now faded to dark brown with a waistband and fly front. The very full legs are gathered into a band of serge above the knees. The breeches are lined with linen shag, interlined with coarse brown wool and stuffed at the knees with probably unspun wool. The top and front edge of the waistband is bound with green and purple silk ribbon. A placket of serge on the left front edge bears 7 unworked buttonholes corresponding to 5 remaining buttons (round wooden core covered with plaited black silk thread) on the right front. There are 2 worked eyelets on either side of waistband front. No worked eyelets can be found to correspond with the doublet lacing band, but a series of holes in the waistband suggests an aiglet was pushed through the fabric. A bound opening on each side of the front opening and one at each side seam indicates the placement of 4 pockets. A chamois pocket lining remains only at the left seam.

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Doublet and breeches

• Place of origin:
  England, Great Britain (made)
  
• Date:
  1625-1635 (made)
  
• Artist/Maker:
  unknown (production)
  
• Materials and Techniques:
  Wool, trimmed with silk and lined with linen
  

[Capt. Sterling]

Physical description

Breeches of silver tissue, probably French, in a semi-naturalistic floral pattern carried out in pair shoots of plain silver thread on a white silk tabby ground. They have a fly front and a flapped horizontal pocket at each hip, lined with chamois leather, the flaps faced with silk matching the coat lining. To the left side is stitched the sword hanger, of the same silver tissue, lined with blue spotted silk. The breeches are lined with white flannel. Made for the Lord Clapham wooden doll.

Place of Origin

London, England (made)

Date

1690-1700 (made)

[Capt. Sterling]

Object history note

The doll and its partner are thought to have belonged to the Cockerell family, descendants of Samuel Pepys. The daughter of Pepys' nephew, John Jackson (son of his sister, Pauline) married a Cockerell. The doll and its partner were named 'Lord' and 'Lady' of the family home in Clapham.

Historical significance: The doll and its partner are costume documents; their clothes being, in style, cut and material, perfect miniatures of the fashions of the late 17th century. Their importance is underlined by the almost total lack of other good visual material for this period, whether pictorial or in the form of surviving garments. In particular, the survival of accessories and the informal garments is extremely rare.

Historical context note

Dolls were widely produced in the 17th century, although very few survive. It is most unlikely that these particular examples were the playthings of children. Their production is of a high quality, almost all the accessories survive and there is little wear and tear on the dolls and their garments. They were most probably purchased for the amusement of adults, and as a decorative accessory to a home.

Descriptive line

Lord Clapham's breeches, silk with a floral pattern, fly front with flapped pockets and lined with chamois, London, 1690-1700

Bibliographic References (Citation, Note/Abstract, NAL no)

Hillier, Mary, Pollock's Dictionary of English Dolls, London: Robert Hale Ltd, 1982, 50-51, 202pp. ill

[Capt. Sterling]

Physical description

Coat and breeches for a boy of fine red wool embroidered with silver-gilt thread. Wool, faced with silk twill, lined with cotton twill, embroidered with silver thread and hand-sewn.

[breeches] Breeches with a fly front fastening with three buttons worked with silver-gilt thread. The fronts are faced with red silk twill. Two large buttons at the front waist, and a centre back opening with two eyelet holes to allow for a tape adjustment.

Two pockets are let into the waistband at the front, each with a button fastening. On each front there is a horizontal pocket which fastens at the hip with a single button. There are two side pockets faced with red silk twill. All the pocket bags are of chamois leather.

The legs are open at the knee and fastens with five buttons. The knee band originally has a gathering tape to fit the breeches around the leg. Each opening also has a 'puff' of red silk twill.

Lined with cotton twill.

Place of Origin

England, Great Britain (made)

Date

1700-1705 (made)

Artist/maker

unknown (production)

Materials and Techniques

Wool, faced with silk twill, lined with cotton twill, embroidered with silver thread and hand-sewn

Dimensions

[breeches] Circumference: 30 in waist, Circumference: 76 cm waist, Length: 14.5 in inside leg, Length: 37 cm inside leg, Depth: 1 in waistband at back, Depth: 2.5 cm waistband at back, Circumference: 13.5 in around leg, Circumference: 34.5 cm around leg, Depth: 3 in waistband at front, Depth: 7.5 cm waistband at front

Descriptive line

Coat and breeches for a boy of fine wool embroidered with silver-gilt thread, England, 1700-1705

[Capt. Sterling]

[Capt. Sterling]

Not saying he certainly is but the figure circa 1693 looks as if he could have his hand in his right pocket... (illustrations are taken from originals)

[Capt. Sterling]

So doesn't prove them as being common, doesn't prove them uncommon, just shows they did have em, at least in civilian clothing. And don't forget that one painting of the fellow with his hounds and gun, with what looks to be brown velvet pants that Ivan Henry, I believe, posted.

ah, found the original, knew I had it some where... also Waugh has two late 17th century breeches patterns with vertical cuts in the front near the waistband which could possibly be for pocket openings... um page. 37 "The Pockets, are little bags let in the sides of the Breeches to put or carry any small thing in... The Cut of Men's Clothes 1600-1900 Norah Waugh

Dutch sailor

The Dutch Mariner print from the same series as above has pocket, and there are several other pocket views in several of the woodcuts Foxe posted awhile back...not sure as to the date on those... page 94 Edward Lowe & page 88 George Lowther

Edited January 28, 2012 by Capt. Sterling

[Mission]

Dolls were widely produced in the 17th century, although very few survive. It is most unlikely that these particular examples were the playthings of children. Their production is of a high quality, almost all the accessories survive and there is little wear and tear on the dolls and their garments. They were most probably purchased for the amusement of adults, and as a decorative accessory to a home.

Do you realize what this means?! Kitsch and bric-a-brac are period! (And, by way of a rather tortuously extreme extension, so could the Brain Gremlin be...if only in spirit.) Michael, now the Brain really needs a period costume!

[jendobyns]

Jokes are not nearly as funny when you have to explain them. (Of course, they're not at all funny when no one understands them.) Nevertheless, I will explain: it is an Izod alligator. The shirt looks like a polo shirt to me, especially the collar and gathering band at the base of the sleeves.

Ah, ok, that could explain why it looked like arabic script. And why zoom didn't work in trying to figure out letters Sorry to ruin the joke, my old eyes just don't work even with reading glasses sometimes. Especially when alcohol is involved

[jendobyns]

How very interesting! Lots going on besides pockets to think about.

[jendobyns]

Thanks, Sterling, those are great pics!

Does the forum have a specific location for pictures used for reference like these? Or are they all scattered between different conversations?

[Cascabel]

Hmmmmm...... Now that the pocket issue is put to rest, does anybody know if belt loops ever existed on pants in period ? Or how 'bout suspenders ?

>>>> Cascabel

[jendobyns]

Nope, neither. Although you have ties and aiglets, which would do the same thing as suspenders. Basically the breeches got tied to the doublet, but I'm not sure how that worked when the doublet turned into longer waistcoats and coats. Don't remember seeing any ties or evidence of such on the interiors of those longer garments, but could have missed them. Captain Sterling would know, though.

[Cascabel]

Or how 'bout drawstring waistbands ?

>>>>> Cascabel

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmmm braces as they are known overseas, (suspenders being suspender belt or what Americans call a garter belt) are also known as Gallows or Galusses... the more "modern" variety, or closer to what we know and use, were pretty much created about 1820....although according to C. Willett & Phillis Cunnington's The History of Underclothes, braces appear on the scene JUST prior to the 1800s...Ben Franklin had a set. Supposedly and I have yet to come accross any pictorial evidence, they were a pair of ribbons or leather tied to the waistband with more ribbon... and seem to be something the French invented in the 18th century... unfortunately all I am seeing is Late 18th century.

There is an account in the Holly Trees Museum in Colchester regarding a pair of morocco-leather braces, 5/-.

The word used by the man of fashion for this appliance was, in his case, very appropriate. A 'brace' tightens a grip and his bracess served not merely to to suspend but also to tighten the buckskin breeches as much as possible (which were the fashion in the early 1800s) The labourer, on the other hand, who naturally cound not work in tight garments on his legs, retained the old-fashioned word 'gallows', which had been formerly applied to any kind of suspensory device for holding up a garment, and henceforth used it to speak of his braces.. chapter 1791-1820. Page. 68.

Braces were considered right up to and including the 20th century as 'underwear', so we might not come across too many illustrations of them even if we look harder for em...

Still looking up belt loops, although the belt as a fashion item for holding up trousers does not seem to actually occur until 1930s....

as to Gaop, one way of keeping control of a waistband is to have a gusset in the back, this opening, which laces, allows you to tighten or loosen after too much food...ahem... the waistband. This certainly does help keep breeches up where they should be ... hope this helps... if I do come across more on belt loops, have found something I need to investigate a bit more on loops on the bands, which appears in some info from 1841-1856... will post it here...

Hope this helps

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm certainly seeing information on drawstring waistbands on drawers (underwear) although these also had waistbands like breeches with buttons as well

[Liam McMac]

what a steal!

[landlubbersanonymous]

An engraving from a Dutch book on fire fighting. The recently extinguished ship belonging to the Dutch East India Company in Amsterdam. (Brandspuitenboek - Jan van der Heiden 1690)

Detail showing what appears to be a man wearing braces or suspenders.

This reinforces earlier input about their employment on the continent.

"It depends upon whom you are portraying. Prior to the 1800's, they would be most common with Germanic people. Outside of those cultures though, they were not popular..." - Quartermaster James, Pyracy.com (August 2009)*

*Reference https://pyracy.com/in...749-suspenders/

Edited June 2, 2012 by landlubbersanonymous