MadMike Posted July 29, 2006 Posted July 29, 2006 Was searching Hogarth's images and found some pic's of interest. The first is "Hudibras' First Adventure" dated 1726- http://www.peterwestern.f9.co.uk/hogarth/h...rthgallery.html Notice the fellow with the apron wearing the "Jack Sparrow" style headkerchief (zounds, and I thought that was just a Hollywood invention). Notice the fellow on crutches next to the bear (or is that a buffalo?), the pant's appear to be wide knee breeches- however I've seen other period prints where button knee breeches appeared similar when unbuttoned. The next picture is from "The Costumer's Manifesto" with a series by Bernard Picart, drawn in 1720. It depicts clothing worn along the Rhine. Two sailors ("matelot") are in the series, one wearing Venetian style breeches tied at the knees ("Matelot de Frise"), and the other a Dutch sailor entitled "Matelot de Brabant" wearing the skirt like wide knee breeches aka "slops"- Yours, Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
Gentleman of Fortune Posted July 29, 2006 Posted July 29, 2006 Thanks Mike! The Hogarth. The guy with the peg leg also seems to have open kneed breeches, but as you say, it could be unbuttoned breeches as well. The Matelot below.... could it be peticoat breeches? Damn my eyes, but there seems to be a lot of pleating to the front fabric... What say you? Greg Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression!
MadMike Posted July 29, 2006 Author Posted July 29, 2006 Greg, If you enlarge the picture you can see pleating along the waist (as you said). One can also see a split down the front showing how wide the individual pant's legs are. Also note the seat of the slops. Don't see any evidence that they are Venetian style or gathered at the knees. Yours, Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
Patrick Hand Posted July 29, 2006 Posted July 29, 2006 Just don't tell Petee about that picture..... dang horseman is wearing bucket boots......
Cut-throat Posted July 29, 2006 Posted July 29, 2006 In the painting "Falstaff Examining His Recruits", Falstaff himself seems to be wearing what look like slops. So is the guy standing next to him (blueish green slops). Except, Falstaff seems to have a sort of knee belt clamping the slops just above his knee.
Captain Midnight Posted July 29, 2006 Posted July 29, 2006 Excellent artwork and sources! Thanks Mike! "Now then, me bullies! Would you rather do the gallows dance, and hang in chains 'til the crows pluck your eyes from your rotten skulls? Or would you feel the roll of a stout ship beneath your feet again?" ---Captain William Kidd--- (1945)
Capt. Sterling Posted July 29, 2006 Posted July 29, 2006 The Matelot below.... could it be peticoat breeches? Damn my eyes, but there seems to be a lot of pleating to the front fabric... What say you? Greg Hard to tell from the side view... although yes, they do look fuller than those in the Hogarth. Keep in mind open knee breeches also have gathering at the waistband they are not meant to be perfectly fitted/flat fore or aft in the seat...just not as wide as petticote breeches at the knee. Also what type of coat/tunic does he have on... the angle of the line from waist to back of knee seems more indicative of coatskirts or an apron drawn up to the side for some reason....makes judging the seat that much harder... Interesting find...thanks for posting it... Greg, it may have been hard for you to google that print due to the fact that it is from Maurice Leloir's Histoire du Costume Vol. 10, 1672-1725, showing dress styles in Holland, I believe... My concern with the Hogarth is, is he not trying to illustrate Falstaff in that series? Is that not a character based in a play? How period correct is Hogarth trying to be and if he is, is he trying to depict the time of Falstaff or showing the common man of the time he did the illustration? Hector "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
MadMike Posted August 1, 2006 Author Posted August 1, 2006 Examination of the high res image on The Costumer's Manifesto page shows them to be slops- Costumes of Holland, Brabant, and the Rhine (high res version) http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/leloirX3.htm Yours, Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
Capt. Sterling Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Look at the size of those cuffs. Yeah they're brilliant but not very conducive to getting out the front screen door... I'm always catching mine on the handle and jerking myself backward on the way out to events... I do like the guy in the background...looks like he already has his wig tied back into a que or perhaps even a bag.. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Cascabel Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Look at the size of those cuffs. Yeah they're brilliant but not very conducive to getting out the front screen door... I'm always catching mine on the handle and jerking myself backward on the way out to events... Aye, but back in those days, if you could afford to dress like that, you didn't have to open doors for yourself.....
Capt. Sterling Posted August 1, 2006 Posted August 1, 2006 Aye, but back in those days, if you could afford to dress like that, you didn't have to open doors for yourself..... Aye, Cascabel You be right there...now where are those middling sorts? Actually there are two in the crew who take care of this lowly task...unfortunately they don't live with me and I have to wait to get to the event first. "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
Patrick Hand Posted August 2, 2006 Posted August 2, 2006 Aye, but back in those days, if you could afford to dress like that, you didn't have to open doors for yourself.. That also gets back to the arguement that sailors and Pyrates didn't dress like landsmen.... Nice coats, but you couldn't work in them.......
Cut-throat Posted August 2, 2006 Posted August 2, 2006 Why Patrick, you mean to tell us that you don't scale the rigging in your silk frock coat with gigantic cuffs ?
Capt. Sterling Posted August 2, 2006 Posted August 2, 2006 Aye, but back in those days, if you could afford to dress like that, you didn't have to open doors for yourself.. That also gets back to the arguement that sailors and Pyrates didn't dress like landsmen.... Nice coats, but you couldn't work in them....... Captain... I don't "work"...I just make suggestions.... but then that was the way of gentlemen in those days... orders were for the middling sort/commoners to give... and if I chose to climb riggin, one would do it easily in either ....frockcoat... sleeves with large cuffs naturally fall downward out of the way of hands as arms are raised upward or sleeved waistcoat, with snug tight sleeves, works just as well.... as for the silk...I leave that to GOF... I prefer wool "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
MadMike Posted August 2, 2006 Author Posted August 2, 2006 Captain William Snelgrave had three secondhand coats that were taken by Cocklyn, La Bouse, and Davis- "The pirate captains having taken their clothes without leave from the quartermaster, it gave great offense to all the crew, who alleged if they suffered such things, the captains would for the future assume a power to take whatever they like for themselves. So upon their returning on board next morning, the coats were taken from them and put into the common chest to be sold at the mast." One of the coats worn by Cocklyn reached to his ankles (according to Snelgrave) due to his height (or lack thereof). The coat was scarlet and embroidered with silver. ("Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, page 159-60). Yours, Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
Capt. Sterling Posted August 2, 2006 Posted August 2, 2006 Captain William Snelgrave had three secondhand coats that were taken by Cocklyn, La Bouse, and Davis-"The pirate captains having taken their clothes without leave from the quartermaster, it gave great offense to all the crew, who alleged if they suffered such things, the captains would for the future assume a power to take whatever they like for themselves. So upon their returning on board next morning, the coats were taken from them and put into the common chest to be sold at the mast." One of the coats worn by Cocklyn reached to his ankles (according to Snelgrave) due to his height (or lack thereof). The coat was scarlet and embroidered with silver. ("Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, page 159-60). Yours, Mike This would make good sense for a particular crew who ran their lot like this... silver on coats could be reclaimed (removed and melted down) so that it could be used over again, thus a nice profit depending on how much is used per coat.... It makes a lot of sense to see a crew bickering over the right to keep such a coat and divide it into shares... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
MadMike Posted August 4, 2006 Author Posted August 4, 2006 A series of 20 period plates detailing soldiers in King Louis XIV's army shows sleeves growing larger as one progresses in rank. Although the sleeves are large for enlisted and junior officers, they are exceptionally so for senior officers (as is depicted above). Yours, Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
Capt. Sterling Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 & Two originals from the GAoP period... the top I believe is c. 1690 french made uniform for Scandinavian armies (as per correction of Blackjohn...thanks Blackjohn) ... the bottom civilian circa 1690 "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
blackjohn Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 I thought, and I may be mistaken, that the pic at the top is of a uniform sent by Loius XIV to Charles XII of Sweden and thus not likely a private's coat. I also seem to recall the cuffs on that coat were detachable, and held on by buttons at the crook of the elbow. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together.
Capt. Sterling Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 I thought, and I may be mistaken, that the pic at the top is of a uniform sent by Loius XIV to Charles XII of Sweden and thus not likely a private's coat. I also seem to recall the cuffs on that coat were detachable, and held on by buttons at the crook of the elbow. You could be correct, it was posted on the early 18th century wars chat list... I'll go back and double check... like I stated... I believe meaning "not written in stone".... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
blackjohn Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 Charles XII was pretty freakin' cool. He's wearing a really nice coat in this pic... sort of the inspiration for the coat I made... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Carl_XI...I_of_Sweden.jpg My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together.
blackjohn Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 You could be correct, it was posted on the early 18th century wars chat list... I'll go back and double check... like I stated... I believe meaning "not written in stone".... Or I could be wrong... But if memory serves there are pictures of it in... either the Loius XIV Men at Arms book, or one of the Peter the Great's Armies Men at Arms books. Or maybe even both. My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together.
Capt. Sterling Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 Justacorps made in France for the Scandinavian armies, c.1690, ©Stockholm Army Museum Here we go another picture even better... NOT for the french army but Made by the french... "I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers Crewe of the Archangel http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel# http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/
blackjohn Posted August 4, 2006 Posted August 4, 2006 SWEET! My Home on the Web The Pirate Brethren Gallery Dreams are the glue that holds reality together.
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