Historical v's interpretive

[HarborMaster]

Wow ! ., theres alot to agree with here., however at the same time I dont really fit into any of it ?

I dont act.., you know pretend . I dont speak with a phony accent., or pretend I cant really spell or properly pronounce words., I am not a re-enactor.., paid or otherwise. I am not a historian., (A historian is a paid person .., not just a history buff.., that part I am.)

., I kinda dont really fit into anything., thats probably why me and my little circle of 3 dont do many events and such?

I will however wear garb ., clothing., kit., or whatever you want to call it on a tallship cruise.,weather or not anyone else is. I will wear a tricorn.,straw or leather quite often., around the beach., at work (on my backhoe) blowing cannons on the 4th., or touring on an airplane 1/2 way around the world in a "Poet" shirt and a do-rag an tricorn.,on a flight to Asia and go Island hopping ., Scuba diving and hang out at my tropical beach. All the while wearing heavy gold including a gold tooth. I know its a bit bold perhaps to dress this way and be your own party where ever you go...., but for me., being a bit bold and doing my own thing IS thee essence of the thing.,no., I have not stole a ship., No., I havent raped., or robbed., but for some., to them., I am the pirate. *Grinning* ...., weird aye ?

I collect properties on the islands as well..., something I heard Henry Morgan did as well ( on a budget I am not Mr. Morgan). I enjoy having buildings built and talking to the bank and my workers wearing a silver skull ring and a tricorn and do-rag about a concrete structure facing the water for 4 families. Its great to see their reactions as you qualify for whatever your doing!

I do believe you can do whatever you want., I do., I enjoy a pirate look..., in my everyday life., I enjoy a tropical enviroment., and I enjoy wearing what You may feel is costume event stuff., in everyday life living the way I want to today with an 18th century flavor in a 21rst century day with a little Hollywood., blended a long-long-long-long way from home............, making this Dive-Pirates Scuba dreams come true .

By the way the Philippines has now been rated the No# 1 . in the world over the Caribbean and the Great Barrier Reef in Scuba diving.,coral .,and marine bio-diversity by the International Diver Association ., PADI., NAUI., Project AWARE ect.,ect. :) .

Like I say I am a bit alone in my adventures., In Washington we get some looks., we just look back., what is strange howeveri is in Asia no one really seems to gawk ., or find it funny., they just sort of take it as you are as anyone else...., I LOVE IT.., you really have no idea

[Monterey Jack]

As for my own beginnings I came from a culture that was as close to being a pirate as known. We drank our measly black guts out, ignored the vast majority of laws, kissed any women we pleased, blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords, pops kid's balloons without apology and emptied hotel rooms, right down to the light bulbs.

I was thinking Rock band until I read "we blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords"

See them at http://www.seafairpirates.com - my brother is still a member of them, even though I mutinied in 1990.

-- Hurricane

Hurricane, let me just open with the statement that I've followed many of your posts and find you a wealth of information. And from the respect of many others on this forum its obvious you know what you'e doing. What follows is just my obervance, please don't take it as anything else.

I come from a family (a big, lengthy one) of bikers. THIS is the closest you can get to what you are calling pirates. The big difference that I can see is when my extended family does all the things you mention, they get shot , maced, have the crap beat outta them by the police and thrown in jail....exactly what would happen to a pirate (minus the mace unless it was on a stick!). Your old crew seems to have gotten away with it because they were expected, had law enforcement with you, had friends in the political arena and allowed to do it; which to me says that if you have permission it may as well be a show, regardless of your audience or lack thereof.. That makes you a performer (albeit unrehearsed) and not a real pirate.

I am assuming you weren't fined or punished since you don't mention that. If you were, you're likely a biker and I'll see you at the next family gathering at Sturgis or Laconia.

Now, as for me I'm content being as close to historical as possible until it damages my checking account. My coat and waistcoat are hand sewn leather with hand-waxed linen thread, the shirts are hand dyed with vegetable stains and Caribbean indigo, and the weapons are functional and exact repros of cutlass, dirk and pistol circa 1700. I do take creative license with the hat; its leather because I'm a leatherworker by trade. Same with the boots, though I do have seminole mocs and leggings if need be. The baldrick is smoke-tanned boa skin over pig; both from South America. The jewelry and minor affects are right out the window, simply because I can leave em behind when doing an educational gig. I don't walk in making excuses for my garb,as I know when I walk in I'm exacly what they expect me to be. I will be up front about something being out of place if asked.

I am an avid fan of rum and am now distilling my own.

I began my piratical work as an entertainer on the Ren circuit, but my focus over the last several years has been promoting the cutlass and boarding weapons as a martial art, and in that area I'm definitely a stickler for accuracy...but again I don't tell anyone else they have it wrong. I will show concern for certain things that come up because it may be damaging to A) the pirates involved or the ability for others to continue playing at certain events.

I've seen "pirates" shot in face with pistols loaded with canon powder because it wasn't really loaded, guys stabbed thru the thigh with a sharp cutlass during unrehearsed shows and a ramrod from a musket sail off thru the crowd because they needed extras and didn't care if they were professional shooters. Add to that any number of missing teeth, sliced fingers, armpits, punctured retinas, etc.

To me that isn't even playing pirate, that's just plain stupid and that's my big soapbox.

Everyone is going to do it differently and what I've enjoyed about this forum is that for the most part folks are content with that. To say I'm a better pirate than someone else because of what I know or they don't know is ridiculous. I have no idea how many buttons go on French or British drop front breeches or whether or not the hammer design on my pistol is early or mid 1700s. I can lay a man out with a tomahawk and knife or a cutlass in less than 5 seconds...does that make me a better or worse pirate than a person who knows clothing and politics of the spring of 1693 in Bardbadoes? No.

Its a failing many of us have in the re enactment / historical / entertainment field that when anyone encroaches on what we do, we react defensively because it may call into question what we've become comfortable with for ourselves. That, and from years of being verbally attacked, we naturally fall to it when confronted with strangers with similar interests.

The best we can hope to do is keep in mind others may only be doing for the enjoyment, or for the kids...even, dare I say it...for a paycheck.

The ones who prove themselves otherwise should be ignored, or else we're as guilty as they are.

Having a great time doing what we do is the best way to get even!

Sorry about the rambling; I think this was my longest rant ever.

[Captain Bob]

I believe Monterey Jack has gnawed his way down to the marrow of this particular bone of contention. Especially when you're a newbie, as I still consider myself, you are easily annoyed by the rude, dismissive manner that others, upon occasion, display. I am extremely grateful to the folks who go out of their way to answer questions not only accurately, but with respect for the person who's asking.

I won't even bother trying to justify my kit to someone else. I just wanted to dress up like a pirate and participate to the extent I feel able. There are folks who cannot resist the temptation to demonstrate their superiority by pointing out the historical and material shortcomings of my kit and instructing me in the various ways I need to fix it (or worse, just laughing). Never mind the time, effort and money I spent putting it together, I should've made those slops from canvas and what was I thinking concealing a zippered fly and pockets? I infinitely prefer those who, instead, eagerly welcome me to the club as a new pyrate.

[Cire]

I'm just a person who enjoys it. I've no major desire to go to extremes on accuracy and authenic appearance unless I'm paid a handsome sum for my troubles. If that sounds outlandish and silly... PIRATE!  Why spend ungodly amounts of money for something that brings emotional fun for me for the moment but can be extremely costly in the long run?

I've found this when doing Rev War and talking with many others who do many other eras as well.

Re-enacting shouldn't be just a hobby any more. It's too costly, too pricy for just dressing up for a weekend to portray a historical event.

<snip>

History is only based upon what someone said, be they alive still or by what someone wrote hundreds of years previous.

Until someone's willing to hand me over a paycheck for my troubles or allow me to commandeer a ship for the hell of it without being arrested by the Coast Guard (granted how many of us would REALLY love to commandeer some of the Tall ships out there? Hmm? There's some nice fine vessels).

<snip>

I commend those however who are able to portray a real historical character. I pray you all get paid handsomely for it, too. Personal satisfaction shouldn't just be your only reward.

I'm sorry, and I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but this sounds to me like you are saying reenactment is the only hobby that is expensive.

By what you appear to be saying, collectors of rare items should be paid to collect things, otherwise as you say "Why spend ungodly amounts of money for something that brings emotional fun for me for the moment but can be extremely costly in the long run? " My point being that there are many expensive hobbies, and if you apply the same logic to all, it would get ridiculous. And if you include the time and effort into the expense to refute my example, my dad is a morris dancer. He has spent a fair bit on kit, and also on travel to various festivals and dance outs. If the sides her are with do paid gigs, the money goes in the bag and he gets nothing out of it except the enjoyment of what he is doing, the fact that he has entertained the public, and maybe earned a few derisive comments from those who think morris dancing to be a joke. And those who dislike the morris have been known to endanger dancers lives.

And what is wrong with doing things for the satisfaction alone? I currently am unemployed and spend some time volunteering. Whenever I see something being done, I want to help. I do none of this for money, and the idea of doing these things for money is alien to me. This is probably why I don't have a job, because I can't get my head around the concept of doing work for money. This does eat away at my finances, and I admit at some point I have to get over my issues about getting paid to do things an get employment, but the things I enjoy I think would become tiresome if I did them for anything other than my personal enjoyment and satisfaction.

Back on the subject at hand, I don't reenact at present, although I do wear clothes that the public have considered piratey on a regular bases. Usually just modern clothes that I threw on that morning, such as a tshirt and trousers with a black waistcoat and bandana. If I was really aiming to look like a pirate, I'd make the clothes. I am definitely part of the historical accuracy camp. Nothing against those who aren't, but as part of the public as I am currently, I believe in being given an authentic experience, or as close as can be given. You may think the public don't notice them, but the little things can bury themselves into the subconcious and add to the feel of the thing.

Of course, if I'm looking for mindless fun and entertainment, or a gimmick that complements but is not the focus of an act, then the not so historical is definitely better.

[hurricane]

Lady Seahawke and Harbormaster just demonstrated the difference between playing pirate and being a pirate. As I said, it is a mindset that one can have about life. It's how one approaches the riches life offers and whether you seize the opportunities. It's about going on the road less traveled. It's taking bold risks. Some know what I mean (Harbormaster), others never will.

You don't have to be arrested to have been a pirate. Henry Morgan never paid the price for his deeds. He was good at what he did. Even when he was sent back to England it wasn't in chains. When he got there he was courted by the elite and came back a knight. Only the poor pirates and stupid ones got caught and hung. Many, many more when out on account and retired as average citizens. And whoa, they still thought like pirates, even though they weren't raping and pillaging.

I'm not here to try to explain it - as I said, you either are or you aren't. Even in a modern world there are people who think and act like pirates. Steve Jobs. Pirate. Bill Gates. Pirate. Think a bit and you can see those people out there who are still living a pirate's lifestyle even when we're not actually pirates.

And yes, Monterey Jack. Bikers are the heirs of piracy today. I have had the pleasure of hanging with some of the roughest of them in my youth and they are a lot of fun to party with!

Go for it Harbormaster.

-- Hurricane

[blackjohn]

same shite different day

Have I seen this thread somewhere before??? It looks familiar...

[blackjohn]

I believe there is another group of people that are neither reenactors nor actors. They are the historical trekkers. The folks who want to experience the lifestyle of the period. To some they may appear to be reenactors, but I believe they are more akin to campers and backpackers than most reenactors are.

There's probably some sort of goofy graph that could be created, if one felt so inclined... historical orientation vs the fantastic... public demos vs private events... that sort of thing.

Eh... you know, we could sit around pointing fingers and calling each other names all day. I don't really see the point. We all know from years of experience that some of us prefer our piracy one way, and others another.

[hurricane]

I think it's been around three or four times now. Egad! It's a case of online Alzeimer's...

-- Hurricane

[Silkie McDonough]

same shite different day     

Have I seen this thread somewhere before??? It looks familiar...

I know, I know, it's like discussing politics or religion, just not something you do in public!

[Captain Jim]

Another lost soul looking for it's place in the re-enacting/living history/aw-hell-playin'-pyrate's-fun firmament. A worthy goal to be sure, yet difficult to attain given the shifting sands of ones own knowledge, tastes and aspirations as well as the vagaries of evryone else's opinions.

[blackjohn]

Ok, so the three things you can't discuss in public: politics, religion and your stance on authenticity.

I think it boils down to this. Discuss them, but leave the dogma.

I love to talk history. I love to debate stupid nitpicky details. I love to play devil's advocate and say controversial things hoping to spur some intereting ideas. Others don't like that stuff. That's cool.

[blackjohn]

Another lost soul looking for it's place in the re-enacting/living history/aw-hell-playin'-pyrate's-fun firmament. A worthy goal to be sure, yet difficult to attain given the shifting sands of ones own knowledge, tastes and aspirations as well as the vagaries of evryone else's opinions.

GOOD POINT! Those shifting sands... over time I've shifted one way, then another, then back again, then settled somewhere in the middle, then didn't care at all, and so on and so on...

[Captain Midnight]

Well, for myself, I lean a bit to the historically accurate side of piracy, but I also incorporate a bit of the fantasy/Hollywood stuff here and there. I used to be a historical reenactor for many years, and although my gear was authentic, it was not by any means completely hand stiched, or anything like that. Nor will my pirate gear be completely hand stitched, except maybe visible seams and such. I despise "authenticity Nazis" and "Stitch Counters" who try to impose their ideas of authenticity on me. If having 100% hand made clothing down to your underwear, and 100% wool or linen stuff makes you happy, more power to you! But don't nit-pick my stuff to pieces, because if you ain't happy that my clothing or gear aren't exactly the way YOU think they should be, that's YOUR problem, not mine. My stuff works for ME.

I will try to be as authentic as I possibly can, but I play this game for fun. If it becomes un-fun, why play at all? It is fun to decorate just a tad like Jack Sparrow. Is Jack Sparrow authentic? No. But he is an amalgamation of our modern society's ideas, whether real or not, about what a pirate should look like. Do people recognize him as a pirate? Yep, they sure do. I believe in what someone stated earlier: that it is not so much in what you look like in terms of historical accuracy, but rather the spirit of piracy that you convey.

[blackjohn]

I'm curious, Capn M, if you went to an event, would you be willing to accept certain standards or a level of authenticity and ditch inappropriate gear?

[Silkie McDonough]

so let's just agree to fall in the catagory we choose and be happy with that.

which catagory do you fall in?

This was the end of Beachem's original post. What the heck happened?

Well a day and several posts later I can still say, with impunity, I am an entertainer. If you want more info about how I swing go to page 1 of this thread.

So what about you ...where do you walk this faded, crooked often unperceivable line?

[Sir Beachem Quick]

Well I think I can see why some of you may view this as rehashing the unobtainable and to some degree you may be right . however, There is another purpose that it serves as well. It gives the community a glimps into the minds of the few who actually take part in such discussions. Yeah we all wear pirate clothes but how do we feel about ourselves and most importantly others who share the experience.

Hurricane - you are not a real pirate you are not living a pirate life to think otherwise makes you a prime candidate for the looney bin.

You may however be in spirit a pirate who holds close the values of commaradere, (spelling I know) freedom, adventure, and wonderment that comes from sharing the Pirate experience with other like minded people. I beg of you and others like you who have been "doing this" for more than a year to get off your high horse and just f@#$%n enjoy it for what it is. Recreation

That is all.

[Lady Seahawke]

Hurricane-

You have no idea about me...NOR will I justify myself to you. You can make assumptions all you want...but, you are WRONG!

You don't know me and never will.

[Captain Midnight]

I'm curious, Capn M, if you went to an event, would you be willing to accept certain standards or a level of authenticity and ditch inappropriate gear?

Yes, John, I would. If I were at a strictly historical event, I would do away with any fantasy type pirate items. I do prefer the historical over the fantasy, and 98% of my stuff is historical, but it is fun to play fantasy every now and again. The other 2% of my gear that would be considered by historical reenactors as farby, would consist of stuff like a strand of beads or shells or some such hung from my hat. Small items like that, not black leather pants and bucket boots, etc. And something like that, I could easily remove and put in a pocket somewhere, to adhere to historical standards.

[Captain Jim]

Is that a bucket boot in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

[Captain Midnight]

But what I was trying to say, (and didn't do so above), is that although I play the game one way (mostly historical), I don't look down my nose at others who don't follow my way. All the Jack Sparrows and faire pirates out there, I admire. They portray what makes them happy, and I would never try to take that away from anyone else. To do so would diminish our hobby.

[blackjohn]

I'm curious, Capn M, if you went to an event, would you be willing to accept certain standards or a level of authenticity and ditch inappropriate gear?

Yes, John, I would.

That's cool. And you could just as easily farb-out if the situation warranted it I take it. Being flexible is a good thing. Or as the man said, "when if Rome..."

[Sir Eric]

Yep... my stance on this issue remains as it always has. I'm a performer, not an educator. I'm fine with it and I hope other people are. I am still learning, still striving... hoping to be more accurate year by year... but all for the purpose of performance. Some day I want to quit my day job.

Main thing here is simply a matter of respect. I respect the reenactment community for what they do. I think it's a needed thing... we should always strive to maintain history... not to let it slide into obscurity simply because Hollywood has influenced us otherwise. That would be like saying that movies like "JFK" and "Forrest Gump" should be considered acceptable alternatives to reality, because it's more attractive than what really happened.

The thing is... if you want respect, you gotta give respect. It just doesn't work any other way.

[blackjohn]

But what I was trying to say, (and didn't do so above), is that although I play the game one way (mostly historical), I don't look down my nose at others who don't follow my way. All the Jack Sparrows and faire pirates out there, I admire. They portray what makes them happy, and I would never try to take that away from anyone else. To do so would diminish our hobby.

To me, there are a couple of similar and sometimes overlapping and at other times conflicting hobbies here. See the opening post. There's reenacting. There's entertaining. They dance around each other, sometimes interacting in a kind way, sometimes punching the other in the nose. Yin. Yang. Can't live with 'em. Can't live without 'em. Just my opinion.

[William Brand]

All distinctions aside, I see most of the people here on the pub this way...

Blackjohn - pirate

Patrick Hand - pirate

Tempest - pirate

Rumbarue - pirate

Hawkyns - pirate

Captain Jim - pirate

Mercenary Wench - pirate

Siren - pirate

Cascabel - pirate

"Flintlock" Annie Kidd - pirate

Ace of Harbor Bay - pirate

Captain Sterling - pirate

Rateye - pirate

Cire - pirate

Christine - pirate

Dorian Lasseter - pirate

Mad Jack - pirate

Iron Bess - pirate

Bilgemonkey - pirate

Lady Barbossa - pirate

Cap'n Pete Straw - pirate

JohnnyTarr - pirate

Callenish Gunner - pirate

Sir Beachem Quick - pirate

Captain Bob - pirate

Kass - pirate

Captain Midnight - pirate

Zephaniah W Nash - pirate

Mad Matt - pirate

Matusalem - pirate

Montery Jack - pirate

Amanjira - pirate

Gentleman of Fortune - pirate

Foxe - pirate

William Blydes - pirate

Jonathan Hawks - pirate

Silkie McDonough - pirate

Arthur Richards from Kent - pirate

Pyrate Phil - pirate

Charity - pirate

And so forth...

[hurricane]

But what I was trying to say, (and didn't do so above), is that although I play the game one way (mostly historical), I don't look down my nose at others who don't follow my way. All the Jack Sparrows and faire pirates out there, I admire. They portray what makes them happy, and I would never try to take that away from anyone else. To do so would diminish our hobby.

Isn't this what it's all about? Doing what makes you happy no matter what form it takes?

I couldn't agree more.

-- Hurricane