Historical v's interpretive

[Sir Beachem Quick]

Being the instigator that I am (can't help it . . . Pirate) I thought this to be just as good a time as any to discuss some of me observations.

There are in fact two types of pirates.

1. Historical re-enactors

2. interpretive actors

(oh and apparently very real Pirates- keep reading) added later

Based on what I see most fall in the middle but leaning more tword intepretive actors.

I find historical re-enactors to be more vocal and certainly more anal when it comes to the fine details of the genre.

we as a pirate community need to get to a happy place of co-existance between both types. There is plenty of room and each provides a different service if-you-will to the public.

Speaking entirely for meself now, I can say that I would like to get as close to accurate as possible without spending 5 grand on a hand stiched garment I can neither afford such nor do I believe it's necessary

to communicate the fact that I am a pirate. The only people who give a crap about such details are other pirates; the public is not able to disinguish the difference between a dog lock or flint lock pistol and "hey that's cool gun, is it real?"

further more they shouldn't have to. ultimately the bottom line is we are all posers because I doubt any of us have ever hijacked a sailing vessel on the high seas.

so let's just agree to fall in the catagory we choose and be happy with that.

which catagory do you fall in?

[hurricane]

I must disagree.

First, I used to be one of those who poked fun of those who tried to explain things from a historical perspective. It is the role of historians and researchers to separate fact from fiction. To demean them as being anal is just wrong and very short sighted.

If one has a love of history and understands its influence on modern times, then it is vitally important to seek the truth whenever possible. There are those who will argue until they are red in the face that pirates wore this or that, that they had short or long hair, had tricorns or wool caps, or tattoos or not... the problem is that Hollywood and fiction has created "facts" when in fact, it's fiction. But it's been told for so long folks new to piracy thing they are being hard nosed, rather than protecting and sharing the chain of evidence that leads us to further understanding about the world's third oldest profession.

That is simply folly. Equally folly are those who are interpretors of piracy who hide behind flawed interpretations while trying to be pirates. That is not to say you can't be a pirate and still place loose with the facts. Just be aware that your apparel and such is not historically correct. Don't add to the confusion.

I play both sides. I am deeply into the history of the buccaneers and pirates in Jamaica. I represent Captain Morgan on occasion and try to do it correctly. To that end, I have a doglock instead of a flintlock. It's the little things that can create a more historical representation and it doesn't cost that much. If you're going to do buccaneers and can afford a gun, get a doglock rather than trying to pass a Queen Anne off as correct. That's all the historians are telling us. I think it's a thankless job myself. We all carry the same disdain for history that we did in high school.

As for fantasy piracy, more power to you! I dabble in this myself and enjoy it. But I have educated myself to know the difference and I make it clear when dealing with the public what the differences are.

There is certainly room for both, but as one who used to draw the historical folks into the protracted discussions about "could this have been possible", I have learned that solid evidence weighs far more than "I saw this in Pirates of the Caribbean."

Finally, at least for me, piracy isn't a role, it's a lifestyle. It's a way of thinking about people, events, the way I interact with life in general. It doesn't matter whether I've hijacked a boat or not. You either are a pirate or you're not in mindset. And those who are can instantly tell others who are and those who never will be. The best kit in the world can't hide a civilian who's trying to play pirate.

-- Hurricane

[Silkie McDonough]

Well, lets see ...I'm a female pirate and don't keep that fact hidden ...I'm thinking ...INTERPRETIVE ACTOR (singer)!

I'm still new at this. I have learned that there are very few questions that can be asked about the subject of piracy that do not have several and often ambiguous answers.

The way I look at it is this: I'm a creative individual, if I can make it by hand and all of the materials and equipment needed to make it were available during the GAoP then it could have existed.

That is not to say that I hand stitch, I do wish to take the time nor do I have the inclination to do so. If the fabric looks right, breaths right and is cheaper than the original, I'll use it. Nor am I above the use of hot glue or nylon thread ...or staples for that matter. I will not be caring a blade that I intend to use to slice an opponent with. My flintlock may yet be a non working replica though friends strongly urge me to purchase a functioning one. Additionally, if I do have a functioning one I will never be pointing it fully loaded at a human being. I drink rum only on occasion, I have access to clean water, I don't need to pollute my body any more than I already do. I have never been to Barbados, or any Island for that matter. I have never sailed across the ocean let alone on a tall ship. I have never in my life picked a pocket, thrown a belaying pin, climbed rigging, shot a flintlock, ate a ships biscuit, suffered survey, swabbed the deck, loaded a cannon, buried treasure, used the 'head', rowed a boat over ocean waters to shore, spent months at sea, or been part of a hostile take over (not even a corporate one). So you see, I will NEVER be a pirate. I could be a reinactor if I chose to but for me that would take away from some of the fun. So here I sit, in front of my sewing machine sewing my polycotton blend ...or is it ...learning sea shanties. I type on a computer and meet other pirates, some I learn from some I have fun with ...life is good.

[Silkie McDonough]

To demean them as being anal is just wrong and very short sighted.

So "dreck" is an opinion and "anal" is an insult?

Beachem did not say anal was a bad thing. i am a perfectionist at some things and take pride in the fact that at times I have been considered anal about them. What Beachem is saying is that those who are stitch counters should not look down their noses at those of us who are not. Many of us are making an honest effort but the hand stitching is not what is important, it is the knowledge that we can share. Kass is a good example of what this is all about. She KNOWS her stuff, many of us go to her for advice but she does not withhold said advice if you do not promise to hand stitch your garment. Some of us have fun with the theatrics, some with the history. I have no head for history, never have but I can entertain like nobody's business.

Does that make me less valuable as a participant?

Just because I do not say that my pistol is not accurate when I introduce myself does not mean that I am not aware of the fact. Do not assume that I am a fool untill I have proven it!

[hurricane]

I stand by my statement. I offer it without apologies here.

And for clarification - "drek" was used to refer to content posted here. That is an opinion. "Anal" as used in the aforementioned post is used to describe individuals. That would be an insult.

-- Hurricane

[Sir Beachem Quick]

To speak for meself; Anal was not used as an insult it was purely a statement of fact. perhaps a better word could have been chosen but it was the first one that popped in to me head while writting. Believe me when I tell you I have no place or intention to be insulting anyone.

and that my friends is the facts.

P.S.

do notice I started with "my observations".

also notice I said there is a place for both and each serves a purpose.

this can hardly be viewed as an insult.

Silkie - You understood exactly what I was trying to say.

[callenish gunner]

same shite different day

[Rumba Rue]

I swing both ways. I don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks.

I also never tell someone else that what they have on is wrong. I always say something good about someone's garb, as I look for the idea, not the acute.

[Sir Beachem Quick]

Hurricane -

Actually you and I are in fact on the same page by your own admission

There is certainly room for both, but as one who used to draw the historical folks into the protracted discussions about "could this have been possible", I have learned that solid evidence weighs far more than "I saw this in Pirates of the Caribbean."

Ultimately we all want to be as accurate as we CAN but the things is everyone has a different idea on where to draw that line. Stichers is a metaphore for historically accurate.

I will be the first to admit that I am not a historian Don't have a degree in it and I don't want one. I do like learning about pirates though and watching documentaries and reading about the past but not all of that stuff carries over into me dressing as a pirate and ACTING like a pirate.

Now if I was to really consider my self to be an actual pirate The last thing I would worry about is whether my clothes was hand stiched or not. There are real pirates out there and they neither look our act as we do. So it may be a "lifestyle" but only to a point.

When you started in piracy many moons ago was it because of a deep seeded need to be historically accurate or was it because of a book you read or a movie you saw? You see we all have different reasons for being here and we all have our own things we get out of it.

It is a noble cause indeed to want to portray pirates in their most accurate terms. But, isn't the spirit of piracy really what we're in it for?

[hurricane]

So it may be a "lifestyle" but only to a point.

When you started in piracy many moons ago was it because of a deep seeded need to be historically accurate or was it because of a book you read or a movie you saw? You see we all have different reasons for being here and we all have our own things we get out of it.

It is a noble cause indeed to want to portray pirates in their most accurate terms. But, isn't the spirit of piracy really what we're in it for?

I believe that is true for some, but I think my own crewe mates would disagree with that observation.

As for my own beginnings I came from a culture that was as close to being a pirate as known. We drank our measly black guts out, ignored the vast majority of laws, kissed any women we pleased, blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords, pops kid's balloons without apology and emptied hotel rooms, right down to the light bulbs. So I have had a taste of the good life, at least as far as allowed by laws in modern times. True, I never killed anyone. But we did get away with murder.

So I do approach things from a slightly different direction. I don't judge people by the number of stitches in their clothing but by the makeup of their character. In that sense, at least in our environs, you either are or you are not a pirate, as we see them. Those who are know those that are not. Clothing, weapons, persona, historical accuracy means nothing in making this assessment.

This is not to insult anyone else who approaches things differently. Please understand that. I have met many fine people who are great re-enactors, performers, entertainers and good people in general. Some of them are still great friends and I hold each of them - stitch counters or fantasy folk - in the highest regard. But are they all pirates in my experience and judgement? No.

We all come from different backgrounds and experiences. That's what makes the world go round.

-- Hurricane

[Capt. Sterling]

It is a noble cause indeed to want to portray pirates in their most accurate terms. But, isn't the spirit of piracy really what we're in it for?

I would think everyone portrays pirates for all sorts of different reasons so how can anyone person say which is the correct reason? None of us can really... although some of us might try.

Our crew strives to be historically accurate but we can take an historically correct fact and either play it as straight history or turn it completey on its head and entertain folks with that same historical lesson... and boy the kids learn it that much faster than just lecturing them... we try to feel out our spectators and go with what we hope they'll appreciate most and still learn from...

And of course we're all in it to enjoy each other's company, make new friends whether historical or fantasy, and, plain and simple, have fun!

[Zephaniah W Nash]

I know I definitely lean more towards the entertainer side than the re-enactor side, on the few times I get to do more than just dress up and show up at an event I have nothing really to do with.

My kit isn't the most historically accurate, and I'm fine with that. I'm even one of those horrid, horrid boot-wearing pirates. I just don't wear shoes. Not even in "civilian clothes." Don't even own a pair. Two pairs of boots and some rubber flip-flops do me just fine. So, in that, I'm bringing a bit of my ownself into my persona.

I'm also pretty small potatoes in the company kept here as it comes to re-enacting. Fort Worth just doesn't have much of that sort of community, at least one that I'm involved with (for reasons of my own).

I did get to be involved in a very small event on Saturday - Pirate Day at Barnes and Noble. Scoff if you will, but it's the event I had available, so I was involved and did what I could. It seemed to go over well, and more people seemed to enjoy it than didn't - and that makes me happy.

Story time for the little kids - they loved it. They could care less if my boots were accurate or not, they had pirates reading them a story!

Had a bit of a historical presentation for another group (kids and parents, most of the kids were less interested than the parents). I do think we hit on a happy medium regarding the historical accuracy - or lack thereof - of our kit. We explained during the Q&A exactly where we weren't accurate in our clothing. Used what some might denigrate as a teaching tool.

I wasn't a bit surprised that when we asked if anyone knew any pirates from the movies or from books, that we mostly got characters from PotC. I was, however, surprised, when not a single person there could name an actual historical pirate, so we got to spend some time waxing poetic about Blackbeard, Anne Bonney and Mary Reade, Jean LaFitte, Henry Morgan - yeah, we jumped all over history...

What was rather disappointing was the child (eight years old) who called out in the middle of the presentation that "Pirates weren't real. They're just make-believe." I exclaimed how impressed I was that a five-year-old knew so much. When he pouted that he was, in fact, eight, I simply said, "Well, it seems as if anyone can be wrong, when they talk about something they don't know anything about."

[Silkie McDonough]

As for my own beginnings I came from a culture that was as close to being a pirate as known. We drank our measly black guts out, ignored the vast majority of laws, kissed any women we pleased, blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords, pops kid's balloons without apology and emptied hotel rooms, right down to the light bulbs.

I was thinking Rock band until I read "we blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords"

I do not know of any place where this would be aceptable in the free world so please do tell me, where?

[Sir Beachem Quick]

Hurricane -

So what you're saying then is that you are neither a historical re-enactor or a interpetive actor but instead a bona fide pirate like the days of old and further more you can tell the difference between a real bona fide pirate and an imposter?

I am pretty sure that's what you are saying.

[Zephaniah W Nash]

And I forgot to mention the "after action debriefing" that went on at Hooters. Nobody at all had anything to say about the table full o' pirates.

And if you believe that: bridge, sale, etc.

[hurricane]

As for my own beginnings I came from a culture that was as close to being a pirate as known. We drank our measly black guts out, ignored the vast majority of laws, kissed any women we pleased, blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords, pops kid's balloons without apology and emptied hotel rooms, right down to the light bulbs.

I was thinking Rock band until I read "we blasted off cannon, flintlocks and other weapons on city streets and did pretty much anything we wanted to, including halting traffic at will, chasing children with sharp swords and kidnapping politicians and celebrities, sometimes not giving them back for a week or longer. We burned ships in the harbor, broke up bars with our swords"

I do not know of any place where this would be aceptable in the free world so please do tell me, where?

Seattle was the place. The Seattle Seafair Pirates, specifically in the early 1980s and before that. They have had to calm down now, but still get to fire off a sawed off shotgun and cannon during parades.

At the time I was in the group (1982-1990) we were fortunate enough to have several Seattle police officers as members, including several precinct Captains, and our honorees included local politicians, businessmen and other folks. The antics of the Seafair Pirates were legendary at the time. We cold drink heavily in public, run parades drunk, throw women over our shoulders and throw them onto our parade vehicle (a WWII DUKW landing craft), and so much more. It would be hard pressed to compress 50 years of mayhem into the pages here. Suffice it to say it was a wild fraternity of men playing pirate with most of the perks of being a pirate.

See them at http://www.seafairpirates.com - my brother is still a member of them, even though I mutinied in 1990.

-- Hurricane

[Silkie McDonough]

Now there is some questionable garb!

As you pointed out many of the benefits of a pirate were had by people holding down jobs. Hmmmm, still not pirates. Cops who let you strip down a hotel room ...why would anyone strip down a hotel room? Just curious. It has never been on my to do list.

[hurricane]

Now there is some questionable garb! 

As you pointed out many of the benefits of a pirate were had by people holding down jobs.  Hmmmm, still not pirates.  Cops who let you strip down a hotel room ...why would anyone strip down a hotel room?  Just curious.  It has never been on my to do list.

Because we could. :) Why did pirates do anything when pillaging a town?

Besides, I said we emptied rooms, not destroyed them. Please don't put words in my mouth. We simply dismantled them, took everything the pirate had plus his bed, linens, lightbulbs and, well, door. They all went back in fine order afterwards. It was simple fraternal hazing... boys will be boys.

-- Hurricane

[Silkie McDonough]

I have always questioned destructive behavior. Guess that is what separates ...many.

Someone tore apart a section of fence in my back yard a few years ago, IMMATURE teen boys I think, I hadn't done anything to deserve it but I had to pay to replace the section of the fence.

Guess the hotel had to replace the missing items ...what the heck, they can afford it, the rental is only to line the owners pockets. They don't use it to pay the laundry bills, electricity, cleaning crews, workers who maintain the property, management, desk clerks, bell hops, insurance, ....WAIT! ... INSURANCE ...that explains it all! ...that is what justifies such behavior ...it's insured! that is why they have insurance! I get it.

So the insurance premium goes up and the hotel rates go up and the rest of us have to pay for your good time. Okay, I see. Lucky for me I have never rented a hotel in Seattle.

I have rented at hotel chains so ...hey, it does effect me.

So, because a person got away with being a hoodlum in his youth he is permited to be a 'born again, piratier than thou, snob?

[Sir Beachem Quick]

I think anyone here who thinks themselves to be a "real" pirate should take a vacation to Iraq and see first hand how pirates really live.

[LadyBarbossa]

The enjoyment of re-enacting is a catch 22. Granted I've only been re-enacting the colonial era for a half dozen years. But from what I seen is... mostly folks could care less how accurate you are. The only one's who really a sticky and snobbish on how accurate you are... are the historians and other re-enactors. Historical snobs.

I'm just a person who enjoys it. I've no major desire to go to extremes on accuracy and authenic appearance unless I'm paid a handsome sum for my troubles. If that sounds outlandish and silly... PIRATE! Why spend ungodly amounts of money for something that brings emotional fun for me for the moment but can be extremely costly in the long run?

I've found this when doing Rev War and talking with many others who do many other eras as well.

Re-enacting shouldn't be just a hobby any more. It's too costly, too pricy for just dressing up for a weekend to portray a historical event.

I enjoy being a character pirate. Kids love it, so do adults. They don't look at the historical impact of it, they look at what they have in mind.

All I get is "is that gun real? can I see it? Nice costume!" etc.

Face it.. no matter how historical one can attempt to be... the fantasy of piracy is now engraved in the minds of Americans.

History is only based upon what someone said, be they alive still or by what someone wrote hundreds of years previous.

Until someone's willing to hand me over a paycheck for my troubles or allow me to commandeer a ship for the hell of it without being arrested by the Coast Guard (granted how many of us would REALLY love to commandeer some of the Tall ships out there? Hmm? There's some nice fine vessels).

Difficult to just commandeer a vessel for real. Not all that easy and simple as it was 300 years ago. With GPS and long range missiles. Hell, we saw those poor pirates what happened to them off of Somolia. Perhaps piracy was the only way they could obtain ANYTHING and our own Navy had to drown those hopes!

I commend those however who are able to portray a real historical character. I pray you all get paid handsomely for it, too. Personal satisfaction shouldn't just be your only reward.

Capitalism... ya got t' hate it.

Perhaps.. that's why the most hated image in "Pirates of the Caribbean" has to be Lord Beckett cause he's the exact replication of today's corporate society running the poor folk and the free like we pirates into the ground and out of extinction.

~Lady B

[hurricane]

Different strokes for different folks.

-- Hurricane

[LadyBarbossa]

Can't argue there, Hurricane.

~Lady B

[The Doctor]

Aye!

[Lady Seahawke]

Real historical pirates (not privateers exercising their goverments orders during a war) ....were,

CRIMINALS

Let's get very historically accurately real...They were not a bunch of hazing schoolboys. They Killed, raped, pillaged, plundered, and tortured to get what they wanted ...when they wanted and didn't give a hoot about any religious beliefs nor law and order. any justification for actions taken were because someone had something they wanted and decided if they had to take someone's life to get it...so be it.

Let's look at today...if you had something that someone else wanted are they within right to take it because they can?

Playing pirate in the 21st century is like playing space cadets....ok!!! Even with the so called historically accurate re-enACTORS. You are not risking life and limb, You are not breaking the laws, you are not risking disease, nor having a very short life span ending at the bottom of the ocean or dancing the hemp'n jig... You can nice it up any way you want but at the end of the day...would you REALLY want to have met up with them on the sea?

AGAIN, historically actuately real....No matter what else, at the end of the re-enACTMENT you go home to your 21st century lives.

do I dress up?..yes,

do I have a complete set of garb in the fashion that I want? ...Yes,

do I like to pretend and explore the dark side of human nature?...sure...

Am I a history buff? YEP... But that also means acknowledging that real pirates were not the creme de la creme of the 18c society. They were criminals.

But, Someone who envies the mindset...well.... I'll hold my opinion to myself on that one.

Me??? I live in the 21st century and like it where I am. Playing pirate when it suits me. but, shaking the oponents hand at the end with both of us going our own way.