Fencing, Sabre, Historical Swordsmanship

[Paisley]

i took the plunge and signed up for fencing...

when speaking with the academy **http://www.vafinc.com/**(thought i wanted sabre classes) i mentioned that my goal was to "dress like a pirate and pretend to kill people". he said i should take historical swordsmanship.

def of class below:

"Students are introduced to historical swordsmanship based on Medieval and Renaissance techniques. The swordfighting disciplines that will be explored in this class are the Japanese katana (a unique, single-edged sword), the rapier (the traditional dueling weapon), and the two-handed sword (the knightly European mediaval weapon). Swords used in class are the shinai (made of babmoo) and the foil (modern version of the rapier)."

the only setback (i guess) is that the classes don't start up until jan...so i'm taking "foil" untill then.

and as nice as this person was, i don't think he has ever wanted to hoist a pennant....

so mates....is this the class i need/want???

any advice for beginners starting classes???

(i've already asked if i could wear my bodice n bloomers to class to distract my opponets)

lol

[Cap'n Coyote]

Paisley,

I took fencing in college, and had a blast. Go ahead and do it so you'll already be limbered up when you start the other classes.

You may also want to look into some Eido (sp?) classes. It is the art of swordfighting, boiled down over a few thousand years into it's essence.

A buddy of mine takes it, and says that all of his swordfighting styles improved, not just the japanese ones.

Advice: Do the exercises. Wear the safety gear. Don't take the little rubber tips off of the foil.

[Red Maria]

Is this a class in sports or theatrical fencing? A good grounding in sports fencing is good so keep up with the foil. I had two years of sports fencing (foil & epee') before I studied thetrical fencing which has included some historical swordplay techniques (Medieval 2-handed broadsword, Reniassance rapier & dagger, & small sword).

The more knowledge and practice you have the better swordsman/woman you'll be I know I am way out of practice and have got start crossing swords again) . Study saber as well since it's most like cutlass techinque. Cutlasses were more often used used aboard ships than a rapier which could get caught in rigging.

As in all sword play be it sport or theatrical...SAFETY FIRST!

If the History Channel airs the "Conquest" episode about pirate combat you might want to tape it. There some good sword techiques displayed and show the types of swords pirates would have used. Also a couple of friends of mine are in that episode. Look for Mario with the black hair among the pirates. Among the merchants look for Eric rotund dark hair and mustache. Mario 'kills' Eric in the episode. ;-)

I call that six degrees of Red Maria!

The class sounds good but remember to keep studying and study with reputable people.

I hope that helps. Good luck.

[Black Deacon]

I've been swingin' steel for 23 years. I was taught by fight masters. Not fencing masters. Fencing can give you a good basic knowledge but Saber (read also as cutlass) & Rapier are completely different styles. Fencing is point/stick and works off of a point system in your matches. Where as saber is hack/slash/stick. Also fencing is different than fighting. I once spared with a guy who was considered the 4th best in the world in a German technique of Rapier fighting. He won the spare match because of the point system. He lost the fight. If it had been Real points and edges (which was how I was taught) I would have been cut, but not killed. He on the other hand would have died over and over as it were as it was best of seven. If you have never fought before the fencing would be a good place to start. But move to the Historical as soon as you can. Just because this guy doesn't want to put on piratical attire and play doesn't mean he isn't any good. You can still learn from him.

[Hawkyns]

Agree with Deacon on this one. I've been studying the sword for a quarter century or so, me own self and fighting as I was trained is very different fom fencing. What the foil class will teach you is distance, basic parries, movement, maybe some point control, and getting you used to someone swinging a piece of steel at you. Right of way, target area, and stance is *very* different from real swordplay. I use both point and edge, though my preference is edge. The style is commonly called cut and thrust, or the new term is sidesword.

One of my martial arts teachers long ago told me that there is no form that can't teach you something. Take what you can use and discard the rest. Get into the historical stuff ASAP. If you want to look at a couple of books in advance, try Renaisance Swordsmanship by John Clements or The English Martial Arts by Terry Brown. There is very little written on cutlass work before the 19th century, but if you can get hold of a navy cutlass manual from then it will give you ideas, too.

Just don't try to tell the instructor 'but I want to do it this way'. Take what he teaches, as he teaches it. There really is a reason for it. As you advance, you can start to develop your own style.

Just be warned, Lass. It's addictive and there's always just one more sword that you need to try that new technique.

Hawkyns

[Red Maria]

I hope noone was mistaking that I said Paisley should only study fencing or just foil. I meant it's a good start, a foundation. By all means Paisley get itno the historic swordplay but since that class doesn't start till February... You have to begin somewhere!

I have neither the length nor breadth and of experieince of either of you gentleman (Deacon & Hawkyns) but, I have worked with both fencing masters and fight masters. I know that sword work or any martial art is a work in progress that there is always something new to learn and someone new to learn it from. OTOH a person should be careful who he/she studies with lest he/she picks-up bad habits. I think you know what I mean. :)

Oh yeah! I agree about the swords being addicting.

[MadMaryFlint]

Fencing is fun. Foil is aight. I can't wait to start sabre, though... Foil first. Foil is good to start out with. Damn point control and right-of-way...

[Paisley]

i believe the class is sport fencing.....

[Red Maria]

i believe the class is sport fencing.....

I checked out the site and it looks like a good school. And learning foil till the historical classes begin, like I said, would be a good thing. I like the historical program. But I don't see either the sports fencing or the historical sword play offers saber technique or any European cut (as oppose to thrust) technique of swordplay that is neccessary for saber or cutlass work. Maybe there is someone at the Academy who can teach it to you privately or you might want to check out Sword Forum International at:

http://forums.swordforum.com

I think you have to register first and use your real name. If you go to the Historical European Swordsmanship forum. See if there is anyone t in your area who teaches it. The are some very fine swordsmen/women on that site. There is also a section on theatrical combat and living history/re-enactment you might want to check out.

Let me know how things are going!

[Burad]

I took that beginning Historical fencing class at the VA Academy of Fencing.

Had a great time, but I missed the last three weeks due to 9/11.

Most of it is broadsword, except the last three weeks when they teach you rapier and cloak, rapier and dagger, etc.

The broadsword work is mostly done with shinai in the beginner class.

They teach you standard blocks/parries, and then get into cut techniques.

Also footwork, historical style.

They show you but do not teach you some 2 handed sword techniques, just so you can see how flexible that sword actually was (and how dangerous).

There is also an intermediate class you can take after the beginner class.

Anyways, it's a very enjoyable class, and you'll get a lot of great practice with a slashing weapon.

[Paisley]

just an update for those who wrote in...

just finished my second class tonight. the good news, my instructor is also the coach for the historical swordsmanship class. the bad news...it's freakin hard!!!! fun, but hard!...never would have imagined it.

thanks for all the advice. it's not like this is a common well-known subject with my small circle of friends. you've really helped.

burad...will you keep me posted if you hear about anything related to historical swoardsmanship since you're in my area? i'd be very interested. thanks mate!

[Deacon Frye]

I'd rather thought the epee was "the modern version of the rapier" and the foil the "modern version" of the smallsword.

[Hawkyns]

I'd rather thought the epee was "the modern version of the rapier" and the foil the "modern version" of the smallsword.

Nah, they're both smallswords. The epee is a stiffer blade but so was the colichmarde and it was still a smallsword. Rapiers have longer, even stiffer blades. European rapiers went up to 4 feet or more in the blade. Some of them had only point and no edge, some had both. It got so bad that Queen Elizabeth issued a royal decree that rapiers entering London were to be broken by the watch to a length of no more than 36 inches in the blade.

There are rapier repros out there today that are good for rapier play. Del Tin makes the best, as far as I'm concerned. Some of the practice schlager blades will also work and can be acquired in lengths up to 44". Myself, I just got a short Del Tin rapier (32") and had it mounted with a shell guard. Well balanced, stiff enough to do decent parries, and short enough to be able climb down my opponent's throat.

My preferred supplier is Darkwood Armory www.darkwoodarmory.com

Not cheap but excellent work. I've got 4 of their pieces now, and I'm looking at a 5th.

A caveat- these blades are stiffer and heavier than sport fencing blades. Make sure you know what you're doing before you go attacking an opponent. They will bruise, break bones, and crush fencing masks if your control is not good.

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

The del Tin Brothers do make some of the best blades. But it also one of the oldest forges and armories in the world. For a blade that will take years of punishment get a schlager from American Fencers Supply. But don't discount Angel Swords who make some of the best blades in the world (and they are priced that way as well) plus Chris Poor - Arms and Armour. Chris made all of Museum Replicas pieces until Atlanta Cutlery got involved and started going over seas to India to produce the crap they have now.

[Hawkyns]

I have several schlagers, from different sources. My problem with them is that they have no spine. The blade profile makes them just too flexible, especially in the longer length. That why the Del Tin with the diamond profile and tapered length is my blade of choice. Of course this is all for rapier play, point and edge, using masks.

For re-enactment combat, I've got a couple of Armour Class blunts, full size, full weight, blunt edge, rounded tip pieces. Used without masks, edge only in the sword style of the Sealed Knot. Now THAT'S fun!!!!!!

Hawkyns

[Black Deacon]

The American Fencers Supply is very stout diamond blade. Most of mine have lasted over 14 years with some very serious abuse to them.

[Hawkyns]

Interesting. I'll keep that in mind. I've bought blades from AFS before, the double canelure, which I occasionally use for blunt combat. Never liked their hilts, though. Too crude and frequently too small for my hand. I got into the habit of custom hilts and just can't go back to the production stuff. This way, I can go to Norman, pick a hilt number, or just describe what I'm looking for, give them measurements and get exactly what I want.

Hawkyns

[Dorian Lasseter]

Aye Master Hawkyns,

One o' these days we need ta play, between firin' th' artillery mayhaps.....

Now I's on'y got schlaggers ta play with... but them other blades ye speak of.... sounds like a fine bit o' fun, indeed...

Sealed knot, edge only, no masks... Hehehehe.....

[Hawkyns]

Ahh Dorian lad, ya missed a good time at St. Mary's City. A few of us got together with the heavy blades and had a rousin' Sunday mornin'. Micheal Stewart Graham abd myself played with baskethilts and offensive bucklers for a bit. A wonderful time and my thumb has nearly healed now.

Hawkyns