Please Help... Need Fast (and Good) Shirt Advice!

[Mick MacAnselan]

I'm having a shirt custom made, and we're getting down to the wire...the shirt is half done and an event for wearing the shirt rapidly approaches. I thought we had the particulars worked out, but now I find I'm getting confused...

For GAoP, what would be the most correct collar and cuff sizes? Also, should the collar be a stand-up, non-folding type, or should it fold down in half? (And does the recommended size mean folded size or unfolded size...I need to carefully understand.) TIA!

[Gentleman of Fortune]

The collar should be a stand up collar. Also, there is a "later" variant that turns up as well. This is a shirt with a "reinforcement" "yoke" at the shoulders. I am pretty sure that this is a F&I or Rev war addition.

Hope this helps in time.

GoF

[JoshuaRed]

Don't forget...s m a l l buttons!

[Mick MacAnselan]

The collar should be a stand up collar.  Also, there is a "later" variant that turns up as well.  This is a shirt with a "reinforcement" "yoke" at the shoulders.  I am pretty sure that this is a F&I or Rev war addition.

Kass has seen/handled some origianals, so I defer to her but the cuffs are not that big and neither is the collar.  I would recon' about 2-1/2 inches for the collar and maybe half that for the cuffs.

Hope this helps in time.

GoF

GoF and Joshua,

Thanks!

Kass (if you see this), or others who might know... Do you know if shoulder yokes were known in GAoP? I've gotten mixed signals on this. TIA!

[Fox]

I've not come across them that early.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I am curious as to what Kass thinks and to what you decided...

?

GoF

[Mick MacAnselan]

I am  curious as to what Kass thinks and to what you decided...

?

GoF

Well, I don't know what Kass thinks, but the final decision was to put a reinforcing strip inside (as opposed to outside). It will be fairly unnoticeable and the seams should last a lot longer. And I suppose I could remove it if I have remorse over the decision later!

[kass]

Sorry, kids! I've been buried under the printer, trying to make sure the GAoP patterns stay on schedule!

Okay, if by "shoulder yokes" you mean that piece of fabric that reaches from your shoulders to the bottom of your sternum to which the rest of the shirt is pleated, no. Never seen anything like them in the extant or pictorial record. They are an invention of the Ren Faire costumers as far as I can surmise.

If by "shoulder yokes" you mean the 2" wide strip that runs from the collar to the sleeve attachment and covers the shoulder seam (or gives reinforcement to a folded-over shirt that has no seam), then yes. We got evidence of this kind of reinforcement as far back as 1600.

Sorry I haven't been around much lately... But it's all for you guys in the end!

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I was refering to the shoulder yoke. I thought/read/heard that that was a later addition.

You have evidence of it on earlier shirts? Interesting. Would you say it was a common or uncommon variation then for GAoP or ?

Curious

GoF

[Patrick Hand]

A shirt shown in Voyager's Sketchbook by James Hanson dated 1780-1800 from Landis Valley Museum, PA. shows a shirt with reenforcements at the shoulders. It's a patch that covers the shoulder seam where the sleeves are gathered into the body.

In The Mountain Man's Sketch Book there is a shirt (1820-1860) where the back of the shirt goes over the shoulders, and is then gathered into the front of the shirt making a yoked shirt.

The yoked shirt is too late for our time period. but the Voyager's shirt is the same style as eairlier shirts.

The Voyagers shirt had a neck hole that is just a slit, with reenforcing gussets on both sides of the coller. The later period shirts, the neck hole is cut out and the coller gathered to that.....

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Pat...

That is what I thought.

Kass says there is evidence of the "yoke" on earlier extant examples. I have never held or seen a GAoP shirt ( or earlier) except for in books, so if she knows of some, that would be good to know.

GoF

[kass]

Would you say it was a common or uncommon variation then for GAoP or ?

It's hard to say if it was common or not, Greg, when we have so few extant shirts from the GAoP period.

[Duncan McGuyver]

Does anyone know when did the collars change over from a verical collar to one that folds down? All of the shirts I have looked at online for the period show the fold down style.

Also any patterns out there? Again, all the patterns I have looked at online have the fold down collar.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Duncan

  Does anyone know when did the collars change over from a verical collar to one that folds down? All of the shirts I have looked at online for the period show the fold down style.

Not sure what you mean....

I think the fold down collar is F&I or later.... Kass will have a better Idea, but I am guessing that the earliest a fold down collar shirt would be "common" would be 1760ish.

That is when we also start to see collars on the coats too. I might be off by a few years, but i am fairly certain that there are no fold down collar shirts in the GAoP period.

So, I am kind of confused by "all shirts that I have looked at online for the period show the fold down style"

If you mean, all the patterns available from vendors are the fold down style, then that may be true. That is because, there are few (if any) dedicated GAoP vendors out there (at least, vendors that are selling reliable GAoP clothing and equipment).

Most vendors are targeting the F&I and Rev War crowd, as they have a larger base of authenticity minded customers.

At the present time, there are probably less than 100 authentic GAoP era re-enactors that do pirate (at least in the US), and the market is mostly for ren-faire types who focus on having fun and not stitches per inch.

Now, I know that some of you will acuse me of trying to re-kindle the fantasy-factual war, but I am not, I am just trying to say that that the vendors will respond to the demand. If the customers don't know and don't care, then why stock things that maybe harder to make/less profit margin and have small volume of sales?

Kass has already posted a free shirt pattern and directions to make a GAoP shirt, you can find it here

http://www.esotericcreations.com/index.php...rticle=12&mn=ht

GoF

[kass]

Hi guys.

Okay, let's define what we're looking at here. I see three different things.

1 -- Short, stand collars

2 -- Wider, soft collars that are worn with a cravat around them

3 -- Yet wider, soft collars that fold down

Number 1 we see in the 16th and very early 17th century (like 1605), usually with embroidery on the collar to give it even more stiffness. Then we see them again around the time of the American Revolution. There's on in the collection of the Museum of Costume in Bath dated 1585 and a similar one dated 1610. And then there's one in Williamsburg's collection with a 1" tall collar. It's dated 1775-1790 (but possibly altered in 1810). So short stand collars appear to have been period for the end of the 16th/beginning of the 17th century and the end of the 18th/beginning of the 19th century and not in between in the GAoP.

Number 2 and Number 3 are almost indistinguishable. If a man is wearing a cravat, it's hard to tell if his collar is folded down underneath it. The only shirt we have that dates positively to the GAoP is on a doll at the V&A. It's collar is tall (the life-size equivalent of maybe 4") and it is buttoned closed. But paintings of other men from the period, we cannot see their collars at all. Generally, men of fashion are wearing cravats or Steinkirks and we can assume that their collars are under those neckcloths. But as to the common man, I have GAoP era pictures of men without collars showing at all and others with their collars flopped open as in the modern day. It seems to be the case that it was not respectable to go around with your neck exposed, however, for even lowly street hawkers in the Cryes have something tied around their neck, even if it is only a rag.

If only we had more extant than we do. Unfortunately we don't choose which period retains the most textiles -- nature does.