Great Coat plus Baldric

[Jib]

Should the baldric be worn over the great coat or under it? I guess over it would make it more easy to draw a blade or other weapon but I imagine that the coat could also protect the weapons also.

Anyone?

[Fox]

Please yourself really. Personally I like to wear my coat over my sword, with the sword sticking out the side and rear vents of the coat.

The sword worn under the coat

Admiral Sir John Norris by George Knapton, 1735

Captain Edward England, 1734

The sword worn under the waistcoat

Admiral Fitzroy Henry Lee, circa 1725

A sword belt worn over the coat

Admiral Sir John Jennings, by Kneller, 1708-9

Isaac Townsend? pre 1707

Admiral Benbow, by Kneller, 1701

Baldrick worn over the coat

Jack Rackham, 1725

[hurricane]

I'm with Foxe. I wear the sword on my belt under the coat. I usually own wear a baldric with a vest because of a really purely vanity reason - the baldric interfers with an open coat, keeping it from hanging correct (at least for me) and constantly getting caught on the buttons.

Again, a personal thing...

-- Hurricane

[Captain Jim]

I do both, dependent on the weather. If I'll be taking the coat off and putting it on again all day, I'll wear it under. Also, I think that it is more comfortable under the coat than over, plus you can shed your coat and get to "fighting trim" faster. Which brings up the subject of baldrics on ships again. If I want to shed a scabbard, I can do it one-handed with a baldric, and be free to move about without being encumbered, but I have to shed the coat first.

[Monterey Jack]

I do both, but prefer it under the coat. Easier to disrobe before a fight, or if you choose not to take the coat off, you can get that whole "gunfighter" attitude going by slowly lifting the coat back to expose the sword.

[Capt. Sterling]

Fashion Plates of the times, like some of the prints Foxe shared, show both ways as well... so what ever is the most comfortable for you.

Hector

[Jib]

I wear mine over the coat but I'm starting to re-think it. My coat collar seems to be smashed and the lapel doesn't sit right. My coat might not vent properly but I think I'll give it a try!

Just wondered if it had to do with historical fashion of the time.

[Tall Paul]

At the risk of making myself unpopular, and also of covering the same ground as previous posts. I have to point out that for the majority of the Golden Age of Piracy, baldrics were not worn.

The baldric, was the sole method of carrying swords throughout the time of the English Civil War.

The first illustrations of sword belts appear during the late 1670's, but they do not become commonplace until the mid 1680's. there is a period overlap, lasting less than 10 years during which both baldrics and sword belts appear, sometimes in the same picture, but by the early 1690's the baldric had fallen out of use.

There may have been a slight lag for new fashions and equipment to filter through to the colonies, but given the level of trade and communication across the Atlantic at this time, anyone wearing a baldric by the start of the 18th century would have been considered highly unusual.

There are of course exceptions, for example the baldric continued to be worn by the Scots throughout the 18th Century, but unless you intend to portray a Scottish pirate, in full Scottish garb, this is not really relevant.

During the era when the baldric was in use, it was always worn over the coat, and in as a result, was sometimes expensively decorated.

In the army of the early eighteenth century, all strapping (Sword belts, cartridge pouches, bags, etc, etc,) were worn outside the coat, with the coat buttoned up. To the modern re-enactor, this would seem very hot and uncomfortable, but one must remember that the world was experiencing a climactic low at this time. The river Thames frequently froze over to several inches thickness, and temperatures were much lower than they are today.

Civilians usually wore the sword belt under the waistcoat, with the grip protruding from the side vent, and the blade from the back vent.

But throughout history, military equipment has had an influence on civilian fashion and vice-versa. So, as Ed's pictures illustrate, the military mode of wearing the sword belt over the coat, was sometimes adopted, although I would not be surprised to discover that the subjects of the portraits posted by Ed who are wearing the sword over the coat all come from a military background.

If you look closely at the picture of Jack Rackham dated 1725, you will see that in fact, the strap across Calico Jacks chest, is not a baldric, but is in fact the strap of a cartridge box.

I believe that this picture comes from a series of illustrations from the general history of the pirates. (Correct me if I am wrong here Ed) which for the most part, despite the limitations of the medium, appear to be fairly accurate. So far as I am aware, baldrics do not appear anywhere in this series of pictures.

[Tall Paul]

The first illustrations of sword belts appear during the late 1670's, but they do not become commonplace until the mid 1680's.

OK, Before some pedantic git points out that there are lits of illustrations of Medieval, and Dark ages AND Elizabethan sword belts, and so on.

I had better poin tot that what I ment to say is that.

The first illustrations of sword belts used during this era appear during the late 1670's, but they do not become commonplace until the mid 1680's.

[Tall Paul]

I wear mine over the coat but I'm starting to re-think it. My coat collar seems to be smashed and the lapel doesn't sit right. My coat might not vent properly but I think I'll give it a try!

Just wondered if it had to do with historical fashion of the time.

Hello Jib,

I would refer you to my previous post.

Since during the era when baldrics were worn, and for many years afterwards, (See Eds pictures) coats did not come with lapels, it is probably because your coat was not cut to be worn with a baldric. Without seeing the coat, I cannot possably comment. But it sounds like your coat is of a much later pattern.

Paul

[kass]

Paul, you're my hero. You used my favourite word: pedantic.

I agree with him, Jib. Your coat shouldn't have a lapel so that may be where you've met your bloomer.

{SHAMELESS PLUG ALERT!}

Perhaps you should buy a Reconstructing History Golden Age of Piracy Coat Pattern. You can preorder one here now:

Reconstructing History Piracy Age Patterns

:)

[Jib]

Here is a picture of my coat on our web site. Not the best photo. Not a period coat.

http://www.theatreofthenorth.org/

[kass]

Ah yes. You're the one in the center, are you? It's those big turnbacks, Jib. They're catching...

[hurricane]

Thanks for the info Tall Paul. Now that I am focusing on the 1640s to 88, it's good to know how the baldric fits in. I have a really nice one but haven't used it much when I was doing GAoF.

-- Hurricane

[Fox]

You're quite correct Paul, the Rackham illustration is one from the GHP. I'm pleased you commented on their general (if undetailed) accuracy - too often people say "yeah, but the artist had probably never seen a pirate...", which is probably true, but they were probably quite familiar with seamen in general.

And yes, all of the pictures were deliberately chosen because they show naval officers

[Jib]

I'm in the lower right clad in red.

[kass]

As you said, definitely not a period coat. Not laying terribly well either... I can see why the baldric causes such a problem.

[Jib]

Well Kass if you have advice on how to make my coat behave I'm all ears. Otherwise I think I will try the baldric under the coat.

[kass]

Unfortunately, Jib, I think your problem is the fabric as well as the construction of the coat. If I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing, the fabric is rather soft and flowy, correct? That will always kinda curl up. And the lapels are just plain modern. They're always going to get caught on the baldrick.

Try it under the coat. I think that's your best bet.

[Tall Paul]

Thanks for the info Tall Paul. Now that I am focusing on the 1640s to 88, it's good to know how the baldric fits in. I have a really nice one but haven't used it much when I was doing GAoF.

-- Hurricane

1640's to 88, I would suggest that you narrow your time window a little bit Hurricane. During that timeframe, mens costumes underwent significant changes. At the start of that period, men were wearing short doublets with baggy breeches, and by the time you reach the 1680's, the long coats and waistcoats that typify the early 18th Century had come in.

I would suggest that you do a bit of research and find what decade of the 17th century matches the costume that you have or intend to get.

in a previous post you commented

the baldric interfers with an open coat, keeping it from hanging correct (at least for me) and constantly getting caught on the buttons.

If you ar dressing for this earlier period, instead of leaving your outer garment un-buttoned, or partially buttoned to the waist, as you would with a modern garment, only button the top two or three buttons, leaving the rest of the coat hanging open.

It looks strange to modern eyes, but I have seen it enough times in period pictures to believe that this is how they overcame this particular problem. it chould work for costumes cut from the start of the century to around the 1660's/1670's give it a try anyway.

As ever, I hope that this helps.

Tall Paul

[Jib]

Thanks Kass

Everyone else also!

[Capt. Sterling]

How does one post prints on this site?

I have several Arnoult (sp) fashion plates that show baldricks being used, worn over the coats, these are circa 1680s. These may be of interest to some of you who do pre-1700.

I also have a black n white drawing in french, showing another baldrick worn over the coat, and I would love to know the translation if any one is savy in that language.

Hector

[kass]

I think you have to have them on a webspace somewhere before you can use the "IMG" button.

Hector, email them to me and I'll put them up on my site temporarily.