When is it just plain wrong

[Fox]

Do you ever get one of those evenings when it all comes together good?

The guy on the floor here is definitely wearing some kind of bag diagonally, looks to me like a "sausage" style snapsack like soldiers wore. (Detail from a sketch of Plymouth harbour, 1735)

Can't quite tell what the guy in the background has, but again it looks like a soldiers' style "sausage" snapsack, slung on his cudgel ("The Sailor's Return, circa 1740)

You remember that series of French buccaneers I posted from a map cartouche of about 1700? Quite a few of them look like they've got large square bags on their left side, worn under their short jackets but over their long smocks. The detail isn't good enough to tell for sure, but at least three or four look like they have.

[kass]

Why not carry your tankard in your very period haversack?

Ed reminded me of an example that my friend who is an expert on medieval cooking always gives to talk about justifications and why they don't always work.

In the middle ages they had eggs. We know this as fact. In the middle ages they also had vegetable oil. No brainer. But just because you mix these two together and get mayo doesn't mean they had mayonaise. :)

Assuming that because we thought of it, our ancestors would have too is a trap. This is where you really have to immerse yourself in the period to make a good guess. Once at an event, a member of the public ask me what medieval people used instead of watches. I responded, "Why would I have to know the exact time?" Truly, the exact time wasn't important to people in the middle ages. But as modern people, knowing the exact time is very important to us because of how our modern world works.

So did you think of the thing as a modern person or a person living in the period in question? That's the real test.

Still, I would want something approaching proof. Sometimes our guesses just aren't as educated as we would hope.

[Diosa De Cancion]

well this discussion we have been having has gotten me to delve into a study I have not done before, as mentioned two direct lines have been going on, local or international influence and Port Royals history, as stated I beleive Foxe has out argued me and shows a better arguement about influence, My har is off to him, and now I have some intersting findings about Port Royal,

Not tt get off subject about weather the mood was pro or anti pirate it seems that since 1692 and the earthquakes that sunk over 50 percent of the city, a few other ntable disasters hit the port before the end of the GAoP.

1703 the town was devasteded by a huge fire

1712 it was smashed and crippled by a huge hurricane

and in 1722 2 earthquakes and a hurricane hit it, leaving its economic future to become the fishing village it is today.

I am currently looking for a good volumne of Jamaican history that features the cities political enviroment of the era as a background for future study of the area.

First since this is a focus on accuracy - a bit of a correction.... the earthquake did not sink 50% percent of the city... rather 13 out of the 38 acres... or 1/3.

Also - referring to the rebuilding - trade was back quickly and not always reputible as noted in this quote from Boston Puritan Cotton Mather, 1706 discussing the years after the quake

" All that was left of Port Royal was about 25 acres, a substantially depleted population and a skeleton of a town. Yet, five years later a visitor to Jamaica described Port Royal as a place where the residents "regard nothing but money, and value not how they get it".

That would go with the thought that although it was not Politically Correct or legal to associate with pirates, if they were to arrive and have gold in hand, they would not be turned away.

If you are looking for a book or two... Port Royal : A history and Guide by Clinton V. Black is pretty good. It's not the most detailed book, but it is a cliff notes version of the history, climates, and locales. Black is the Former Government Archivist for Jamaica. Not sure if you can find it here though. The only place in Jamaica we found it was at Fort Charles.

Just another note about 'rebuilding' after disaster. I know we are all used to the screeching brakes of life when there is a disaster here... and everyone has to wait until Home Depot has supplies or a contractor can arrive... but I have relatives in Belize, who are in much more primitive homes than we , and have been slammed by hurricanes. Access to the rest of the country is shut off for a while, but no one stops going about their daily business. They just consider it part of life. Shipments may not come, but they use what is available to rebuild and continue without missing a beat. I would think port Royal would be much the same.

just my 10 cents :)

[Monsignor Fitzwell]

Shortly before noon on 7 June 1692, 33 acres (66 percent) of the "storehouse and treasury of the West Indies" sank into Kingston Harbor in a disastrous earthquake. An estimated 2000 persons were killed in an instant. An additional 3000 citizens died of injuries and disease in the following days (Pawson and Buisseret 1975:121).

I see it as different souces giving different amounts

Yes they do discribe it as a place where they were hungrey for money, but its heyday was over

places like New Providence, Petite Groave and others offered a much more friendly base for them and they went to those places

and if your dock area, which is your daily businees dissapears, going about that is kinda hard

[Diosa De Cancion]

I am well aware of the time of the earthquake. I have seen the pocketwatches stopped at quarter to noon that let the archaeologists know what time it was. Amazing what you can learn from an x-ray of an old rusted bunch of gears. I think we all agree on the death toll as well.. no issues there.

Well here is a map of before/after. It's not the best map out there, but the better ones I have are in books, not a quick link. but as you can see by the red line, more of the city was above the surface, than beneath...and just so you know the city continues off the top and side of the map....

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/pages/histo...y/story001.html

I am not saying it was the bustling port it had been before the earthquake. Before the disaster Port Royal was a busier port than Boston in it's colonial heyday. Did that return, no... but ships could still come into port royal. And likely would. Without CNN to let them know there had been an earthquake, ships that were bringing in supplies would continue to move that way, and show up at port. And residents who remained and wanted to get money and rebuild their lives would be more than willing to use their boats to help offload cargo. I would think they would have been even more zealous to help bring new supplies in, after all... I am a fan of being able to eat and feed my family...and I don't think that instinct has changed too much over the generations

So, now if pirates were to be in the waters.... and I had a useful trade and someone came up with a bunch of gold for something 'not quite legal'.... conidering the fact that the area had been friendly to pirates before, I am pretty sure i would be willing to take the gold to help...this is assuming I even knew the person asking of my services was a pirate. I would figure a smart pirate who wanted to keep his head firmly attached to his neck who was in need of some sort of service for his vessel would be a 'poor fisherman' whose ship was in need of repair....

[Monsignor Fitzwell]

There again a different reference, aording to the link you give, port royal was 50 acres and all that was left was 25, so that menas 50 percent was destroyed

I fear that we will never know the exact amount, I conservatively say 50 percent even though I hav a source saying 66 percent.

Oh well

History is written by the victor, and such as it is, his opinion is often recorded as fact, Sad but true.

another thing about watches

man who has 1 watch know exactly what time it is

man with 2 is never quite sure

amazing that xraying a watch can tell you the time it stopped at, not the time of a event, tell me if I drop a watch into the water, will it stop at that second? or run till it either unwinds or something happens to it?

[hurricane]

Actually, two watches were recovered and matched the time exactly. I think you would have enjoyed the presentation by Dorrick Gray, acting director of the Jamaican Heritage National Trust. He has dived the city on many occasions and has detailed records, not only about the site, but what happened during that time frame, right down to sonar imaging of the ground slipping and shifting. He was involved in the original archeology of the site and is the one who presented the time to us, based on the historical records of those who were there plus the two watches to confirm it. I think he's a pretty good source, given his expertise on the subject.

I was an amazing presentation by the way, complete with photos from the pipe shop there with hundreds of clay pipes still intact, just as they fell off the shelves that day and additional images of the shop floors, complete with intact herringbone brick work.

We are working with him in some respects on options to allow divers to got to the sunken city on a guided tour. There are many obstacles, of course, including the risk of damage to the artifacts and buildings down there. But we gave him some great input and ideas to present. Hopefully we'll all be able to see first hand what life really was like there.

I do recommend reading the theses of Thornton, Franklin, Donachie, Darrington and McClenaghan that cover much of what we're talking about. Their research includes the inventories of different town residents (you would be surprised, I think to find out just how much golds and precious stones even a shopkeeper had in his possessions) along with various analyses of life in Port Royal at that time, including the cultural diversity and international character of the two, the buccaneers and sea rovers.

If you haven't gotten the Sea Rover's Practice yet, I think you will find it a fascinating read. I just completed the part that explained the unlikelihood of a pirate vessel even meeting up with a member of the Navy's guard fleet on the high seas and even when they did meet, how hard it was to engage if the winds were not favorable. Many records of enemy ships passing within 500 yards and not able to engage, due to the winds and lack of range of a ship's guns. It's an amazingly well researched book.

Hope this gives you some additional resources to work with.

-- Hurricane

[Hawkyns]

Hurricane- is there a published archeological record of the dives and finds so far? Scale drawings, archeologists sketches, detail photos, etc?

ISBN?

Thanks,

Hawkyns,

[hurricane]

I don't know of any published works, except those of Marx in the 50's. The more substantial excavations happened in the late 80s, including land excavations of the old church and Chocolata Hole. But nothing has been published.

I have several of the theses that were published as a result of the study of the artifacts that I can post here. They are pretty interesting. They're the ones I referred to earlier.

Otherwise, the bulk of records, artifacts and photos of the site reside with the Trust.

The nice thing is they were willing to come out and speak with a group of just six of us down there. Dorrick was very helpful and was happy to answer our questions about the artifacts and the sunken city. If we can get the festival put together down there next year (07) in Port Royal, we hope to have him do a formal presentation for all the gathered pirates.

-- Hurricane