Whips

[Mad Matt]

Besides flogging on the ship, what else would whips be used for? *This is me first "clean" thread in a while. Hope it can stay that way.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Tha' be about it fer aboard ship...

Whips were used fer discipline...

As fer floggin' tha' were done wi'a cat-o-nine tails....

Least ways wot I know.....

[Scarlet McBayne]

Clean? you Mad Matt? ha

ye got te be kiddin me luv....

[Mad Matt]

Pray tell, what be the title o' the person administerin' the floggin'?

As fer you, ye ruby-haired hussie....I'll be takin' care o' you!

[Scarlet McBayne]

[/color]Promises,........ promise?[/size][/font][/i]

[Dread Mach Brannigan]

Hmmmm...don't know. But I'ave several uses fer Cool Whip.

[Dorian Lasseter]

Pray tell, what be the title o' the person administerin' the floggin'?

As fer you, ye ruby-haired hussie....I'll be takin' care o' you!

Most often it would be the Quartermaster....

ehem.... Hmmm Hmm hmmm........

[Mad Matt]

Very well, sir. Carry on.

Scarlet, my luv. I am only responsible fer "tongue lashings". :)

Awww, crap. The thread just went downhill...

[HarborMaster]

Keel Hauling was a fun pass-time fer a pirate ta do to his victim. There were plenty o punishments ta go around other than just a simple floggin or a whipping. Read "Under the Black Flag" for a little holiday enjoyment.

Other than a beatin' theres not much further use for a whip really.

[Mad Matt]

Would a Quartermaster actually carry the whip, er would it be stowed on board in case its use was needed?

Dorian?

[HarborMaster]

It would be stowed on board in probably a leather bag and at the appropriate time with a nod from the Captain.,the victim would then be tied to the breech end of a cannon (Kissing the Cannons Daughter) or perhaps "Over a Barrel" then the quatermaster would "Let the Cat outa the bag" And that hurt alot more than any bodies flogger. A Cat O' Nine Tails was a ruthless piece of flesh ripping tooling in the ships arsenal of discapline. No man could get more than 39 lashings (That is considered a Death Sentence) It is said Jesus survived 40 before he was crucified.

[Mad Matt]

I see, said the blind man. Thank you, good sir!

[Lady Seahawke]

Whips. well m'self carries one...does right well in a raid...if'n the need rolls around.

Actually, it is according to the size of the whip ...size matters.. (Not going there) anyway, as I was saying before me mind started to wander in other ahem areas of thought,

The majority use of whips may have been used for discipline but, there may have been an occasion or two (as with my persona) where one might have used it in other ways. Using a whip in a fight takes practice and skill. But, it can be mighty handy. Just understand the longer it is the more skill it takes to handle it properly and using it in one hand with a dagger or sword in the other doubly so.

[Patrick Hand]

Humm.... from what I can figure, there might have been a cat of nine tails aboard a ship.... (not sure if Pyrates would have had one tho... would kinda remind them of the strict disapline they were attampting to avoid...) but one could be made out of a chunk of ships cable......

Now horse and bull whips... Why would a Sailor or Pyrate learn how to use such a thing ? just to look cool ?

I can really see a Pyrate with a purple leather "Flogger"....(It's a well known fact that all Golden age Pyrates were into kinky S&M...)

And why bother using a flogger to hit someone when a cutlass works so much better........ (and a bull whip need some room to use..... there is a lot of stuff on a ship to get in the way of using one.... there might be a reason that bull whips were not common at sea......)

The only reason that I can figure why a Pyrate would carry a Cat of Nine tales would be morbid gallows humor.... (I know there is a picture showing some Pyrates riding monks, and whipping them.... but I will have to re-check that picture, can't remember if it's period or not.......)

Sorry to be such a poop, maybe a cat would be interesting to show what was used for disapline abord ships, but horse and bull whips, and S&M floggers... are just a little too Hollywood.........

(Nicco's bull whip in a parade is kinda fun..... but it's not ment to be authentic..... just a good bit of show....)

[Lady Seahawke]

whips come in all sizes...not just the ones you see in the movies ie. hollywood style...12 footers. They can range from small 2 and 3 footers all the way up and if someone has learned to use one, just because they go to sea doesn't mean they wouldn't continue to use one on occasion.

Although, I understand that it might have been rare, that doesn't say it didn't happen. There are always the exception to any rule. Especially when it comes to those that spurned the normal ways of doing things anyway.

Just as it was stated on another thread that the belief in witchcraft would likely not have been used by pirates..then I found it very interesting that Captain Morgen during his pirate days had witch on his ship. He had her on there as he believed that she could foresee the future and as a seer gave him an advantage.

They used whatever, whenever...to give them any type of an advantage.

If someone in this day and age can see it happening...what makes someone think that with it being at hand and more common to have around...someone on the ship wouldn't have taken a liking to using it. Just because is wasn't done by the majority doesn't say it wasn't done. Unless you have evidence from everyship, from every sailor from every land...don't say it wasn't done, because truthfully, you don't know. But, I am sure that as before my beliefs will be ripped apart here...whatever.

[Patrick Hand]

But, I am sure that as before my beliefs will be ripped apart here.

This is not an attempt to "Rip" your beliefs apart. If you want to carry a whip with your Pyrate stuff, have at it...... One of the members of our group plays with a whip durring parades..... it has a nice look and sound to it.....

But it is more "Play" Pyrate, than authentic.

With "play", almost anything that looks right is OK... Ninja Pyrates might be pushing it tho........But there were ninjas durring the GAoP......so a group of black pajama clad Pyrates would be correct....right? just because there is no documintation of it ever happining in the Carribean dosen't mean that it could not have happened.....

Earrings existed durring the GAoP.... just because no one in Capt. Twill can find any doucmintation of Pyrates wearing then at the time ... we all "know" that Pyrates wore them, so it must be true.....

In the movies, Sailors and Pyrates play concertinas (an accordain like squeeze box)... it looks and sound right..... but concertinas were not inventer untill the early 1800's so they didn't exist durring the GAoP.... but the mechanics of a concertina isn't that difficult, the materials existed at the time.... who's to say that Pyrates couldn't have invented concertinas eairler.....

Corsets existed during the GAoP... "You want pain, try wearing a corset" .... so a group of male Pyrates wearing corsets would be correct.... hey it could have happened......

Like I typed at the begining... I'm not trying to "rip" you apart. There are two groups of Pyrates.....

The "Authentics" those who are trying to make thier clothng and gear as close to what would have been used and worn durring the GAoP. The "Authentics" are more into documintation..... proof that something was used or worn during the period.

The other group, are the "Play" Pyrates, who are having fun, and not worrying too much about authentisity... if it looks cool.......have at it.... whips, concertinas and (eergh...) even ninjas can all be part of the fun. (but NOT corsets.....that's just wierd....)

[Lady Seahawke]

Pay attention again now. Here's another historical artifact, this one from a nautical collection.

Scary looking 8 &1/2 foot Whip kept by a Ships Captain. The owner tells us that it's made of canvas and leather and dates from the middle 1800's. "The rigid 'cone' at the tip which appears to be very fine hemp rope work."

I reckon it was a snake Whip that's had the end chopped off, but dont tell Captain.

Aye Aye Sir.

Dang I can't get the pic to post but it and the above quote can be found at the following link....

http://www.mattswhippage.com/

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ok, we all know that whips were used on the slave ships. We also, or should at least, know the sailors would jump ship when they got a chance from them...but, would anyone disagree that the things done would not have traveled with them....especially if they took up the life of a pirate??? So in that vein let's take a look at a some information from that time...

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In 1773, the enslaved Africans from Gambia killed all but two crewmembers and forced them to sail the ship back to Sierra Leone. The most famous open sea revolt was led by an enslaved African named Cinque aboard the Amistad when most of the crew were overthrown. However, their ship was sailed to the United States and the fate of the enslaved was decided by law. Europeans were very wary of revolt and the crew regularly inspected their ships for weapons, punishing the enslaved Africans who resisted authority. Punishments varied in severity and much depended on the character of ship’s captain. John Newton for example, a famous Liverpool Captain, put the young male enslaved “slightly in thumb screws to obtain confession”. Teeth chisels were sometimes used to force enslaved Africans who went on hunger strike, to eat. Whips, such as the ‘cat-o-nine-tails’ and the manatea, a whip made from the hide of a manatee, were also used

www.antislavery.org/breakingthesilence/main/briefings/4.%20Middle%20Passage.doc -

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Oh, another item....

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A ship's commissioning or masthead pendant is said to have originated from Blake's Whip, in commemoration of his driving the Dutch from the seas in 1653.

http://www.readyayeready.com/tradition/cus...ore-customs.htm

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Capt. Charles V. “Steve” Gridley

On May 25, Gridley was to begin his journey home One crewmen recorded the event as follows:

"He came up out of his cabin dressed in civilian clothes and was met by the rear admiral [Dewey] who extended him a most cordial hand. A look of troubled disappointment flitted across the captain's brow, but vanished when he stepped to the head of the gangway and, looking, over saw, not the launch, but a twelve-oared cutter manned entirely by officers of the Olympia. There were men in the boat who has not pulled a stroke for a quarter of a century. Old Glory was at the stern and a captain's silken coach-whip at the bow; and when Captain Gridley, beloved alike by officers and men, entered the boat, it was up oars, and all that, just as though they were common sailors who were to row him over to the Zafiro. When he sat down upon the handsome boat-cloth that was spread for him, he bowed his head, and his hands hid his face as First-Lieutenant Reese, acting coxswain, ordered, 'Shove off; out oars; give away!'Later in the day the lookout on the bridge reported, 'Zafiro under way sir,' and the deck officer passed on the word until a little twitter from Pat Murray's pipe brought all the other bo's'ns around him, and in concert they sang out, 'Stand by to man the rigging!'Not the Olympia alone, but every other ship in the squadron dressed and manned, and the last we ever saw of our dear captain he was sitting on a chair out on the Zafiro's quarter-deck, apparently listening to the [OLYMPIA's] old band play."

http://www.spanamwar.com/Gridley.htm

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Also, ever hear of a buntot pagi…a short whip that is made from a stingray's tail. The idea was to whip your enemy with the poisoned end. Um stingray…ocean…ships…sailors….any connection? …naw probably not.

Ok, lastly can someone tell me where/when the first Mooring whips??? came into use and what where they made of?… Oh, yeah I know there were mooring lines…but can anyone imagine a whip being put into use that way…at least until the lines were secured.

Whips have been one of the first fighting tools used by humanity...why would they not have followed out to sea for a variety of uses? Yes, it takes some skill to use them, especially as I said before the longer they are the more skill it takes. But, whips can come in all sizes from 2 and 3 footers all the way up to (believe it or not) 60 footers. Whips come in manner of makes, from cowhide leather, to manatee, to stingray tails and hempen/leather mixture.

Practical...perhaps not always, but they had them and used them.

so, I will keep mine with my garb and not worry about someone else's authencity.

Hurzzah!

[Calico Jack]

Pay attention again now. Here's another historical artifact, this one from a nautical collection.

Scary looking 8 &1/2 foot Whip kept by a Ships Captain. The owner tells us that it's made of canvas and leather and dates from the middle 1800's. "The rigid 'cone' at the tip which appears to be very fine hemp rope work."

I reckon it was a snake Whip that's had the end chopped off, but dont tell Captain.

The above is from that page [link posted in the message above] which claims to be a "ship's captain's whip that's had the end chopped off." Rather it looks much to be a "manrope" - a line held or lashed over the side of a vessel to give someone a "hand up" as it were, with the knotted end being something to brace your grip with, were you climbing up the side. One of many on-line images of the Manrope knot can be found at http://www.stairropes.com/knots.html - these days the knot is used "merely" as the terminal to the manrope which acts as a handrail on the sides of the gangway [which bit of line is still called the "manrope," by the by]. It was also one of the only bits of "rope" aboard ship, instead of being called "line." The three "ropes" were bolt rope, boat rope, and manrope.

Australian heritage fleet news even makes a mention in their on-line journal for May 2002: <<Manrope knots were formerly tied in the ends of elaborate manropes, which were often coach whipped, painted, fringed, tasseled, decorated with Turk’s heads. They were hung from stanchions in the rails and provided a handhold for visitors coming on board. They were normally tied in four-strand rope now impossible to get.>>

Hope that's useful, even if it denounces _one_ of the "whip used aboard ship" theories. We even have one in the Maritime Museum of the Atlantic's collection. A quick google search turns up that apparently the book "Eighteenth-century rigs and rigging" by Karl Heinz Marquardt includes a chater on the manrope or "entering rope."

Calico Jack

[Patrick Hand]

Humm lets see….

"Scary looking 8 &1/2 foot Whip kept by a Ships Captain. The owner tells us that it's made of canvas and leather and dates from the middle >1800's.< "

1800’s is way after the GAoP, and the above quote doesn’t say if the owner is the Ships Captain, or the Ships Captain owned the whip during the 1800’s, Or what the cargo of the ship was….(maybe a slaver…….) Nor does it say if the Captain used the whip in combat.

"In >1773,< the enslaved Africans from Gambia"

Whips and slavery… OK that’s believable, and period for the GAoP……

"Capt. Charles V. “Steve” Gridley" >(1844 - 1898) <

Way out of period. And they were using the whip for a ceremonial purpose, not as a weapon, or punishment device.

The one from "Canadian Naval History" is interesting...

A ship's commissioning or masthead pendant is said to have originated from Blake's Whip, in commemoration of his driving the Dutch from the seas in 1653. Though it is not doubted that Blake hoisted a >whip< to his masthead on that occasion , the masthead pendant originated much earlier, probably in the 14th century when ensigns and pendants were first authorized in the Royal Navy. Blake had done this in defiance of the Dutch admiral Tromp who had the previous year hoisted a >broom< to his masthead, signifying that he had swept the British from the seas.

Dang... I guess Pyrates should carry both whips and brooms as weapons...... But once again, the whip was used as a pendant…Not a weapon.

I had to do a search to find “buntot pagi”.... and found a page for all the S&M Pyrates....

http://www.ecstagony.com/eng/dict/dicinstr...tr/instr_be.htm

(lit. ray's tail. Pagi or Pagi-paguiis the name of the animal) Also buntot pagi. A Philippine whip made with a dried ray's tail. It is rough, and covered by bulbs, full of a neurotoxin that preserves its power even when the tail is dried. Used as a weapon in Philippine martial arts.

"Obviously you've never been to Singapore" (or the Philippines)

Yup.... Philippine martial arts were all the rage during the GAoP in the Caribbean....... along with ninjas........

Practical...perhaps not always, but they had them and used them.

From the sources listed above, “they had then and used them” for ceremonial purposes, for discipline, or to whip slaves……

[Patrick Hand]

I went and checked out more of this page.....

http://www.ecstagony.com/eng/dict/dicinstr...tr/instr_be.htm

They Alphabetically list all types of whips, and punishment devices.....

there were a few Naval references.... "boys cat" and "colt" were both interesting, as were all the different names by Country for "Cat of Nine tails."

After reading about all the whips, I think that using a "Colt" (or a "Bimmy"... a short rope with a knotted end, sometimes dipped in tar...) would be more period for a Pyrate to carry than a cat.... Just enough to knock some sense into someone, without doing too much dammage.....

[Lady Seahawke]

you never know where you might get some interesting information. Just because of the title doesn't mean it doesn't have something to offer.

Besides as once stated before if'n ye don't do it for real...with all the what nots and where fores...be it ren faires, or re-enacting...you are doing nothing more then pretending...and then no matter what anyone else may say, in the final analysis we are all hollywood pirates cause we, all of us are still play acting.

[Fox]

My crew have been using short lengths of rope with a back-splice at one end coated in tar as a weapon for ages. The difficulty is that they can't be made "battlefield safe", they flippin' well hurt if you get hit by one. They are essentially related to the boatswain's starter, used to beat lazy sailors across the shoulders.

Sometimes we use an eye splice in the other end as a wrist loop. With two splices and some whipping required they make excellent aprentice pieces for new members learning rope-work, and cheap weapons for those who have not yet found the funds to purchase a sword/axe/pike etc.

OOI, Photo taken at the Blake Museum in Bridgwater, birthplace of the aforementioned General Blake

[Bonnie Red Weasel]

Okay, I'm still choking on the thought of an 8 1/2 foot snake whip. Just what sort of snakes would you be whipping with that thing?

I tend to attach a little snake whip to my belt just to look cutesy (plus, it makes a lovely little gunshot pop when I want to scare the hell out of drunks), but I've never seen such a thing documented, and it would not be part of strict period attire for me.

I am the quartermaster on my "ship," and if I really were a GAoP pirate holding this position, it is something I would more than likely not only use, but also display. Of course, as a woman, I wouldn't likely be aboard the ship, let alone be appointed quartermaster. And I can tell you from experience that a whip worn on one's belt has a bad habit of getting caught on stuff if you're doing any actual work.

[Lady Seahawke]

well, women were on ships more often then most might believe. Can I back that statement up...YEPPERs. However, this is about whips and such. Most often whips of any sort was kept in a bag. This is where we get the saying, let the cat out of the bag. I don't think as they were sailing and climbing the rigging that most were carrying flintlocks and blunderbusses either as a regular routine...ya know. So using the excuse or the rationale that they wouldn't have them on the ship cause it would have caused a problem with their running the ship is on the same line, as saying they wouldn't ever use a pistol, which we all know they certainly did

Now going about on the shore...how was it carried if at all...well now that be the question. Have I gotten enough information to satisfy me about my persona carrying it. Yep. Do I have more then posted here already YEP, indeed I do.

So...Am going to take up time debating this...Noooo, I have more important things to do then that. Besides, why should I put out enough information and get a load more carrying them when I like the look on m'self. Now that be foolish...

You see when I first put out the possibility that vodun play a part I was told just how wrong I was...then I found loads of academic books stating the same thing...and even the new PotC is using it as a backdrop for their new movie.... and well there were other instances of the same sort...and after the fact I had found information backing my position...

Also, remember we get our information about the ones that was caught and danced the jig...how many others..so many others.got away with it. They took up the trade got what they wanted out of it and then went legit or for one reason or another melded into the mainstream again.

Anyway, hope everyone has had a glorious holiday season no matter what you profess to...and wishing everyone a wondrous New Year.

May you all have a fire in your hearth to warm you...A pot full of stew to feed you...a shipload of aventure to interest you and a house full of love to go home to.

Huzzah

[ffergil]

Hi, pirates.

I´m the webmaster of www.ecstagony.com. You link to our Flogging Istruments Dictionary.

By the way, there are not some Navy related whips in the Dictionary, there are all the names for whips in the navy I could find after 3 years of research on whips or the like. (but for manatea, I never heard of that one. I will check my sources).

Maybe something could be of interest for you in the site (even if it is basically BDSM) is a whip that should surely had been used in pirate's ships, and is the rope cat o´nine (http://www.ecstagony.com/eng/info/artinst/catnavy.htm). It was widely used in the war and merchant navys of the time (and many pirates would have been acquinted with it, the hard way.

For the purists, it would not be used hanging from the belt, because they were custom made for each punishment, but it has the advantage that it can be made easyly and cheaply by any pirate. And it looks mean.