FLAGS FOR POTC

[Fox]

Look forward to seeing them.

FWIW, I think you're probably right about painting flags being accurate, I believe the description of Cocklyn's flags specifically mentions them being painted.

[blackjohn]

Hmmm, like Black Bart Roberts' "black flags" might have been pink you mean? (anyone got a period reference to that moniker by the way?)

I believe Johnson describes him at one point as being a large, black, man. As for the moniker, I can't say for certain.

[Syera]

I have yet to find a Pirates Flag Regulation Manual, but the production designer is appalled that they don't all fit the 3x5 type of format.

It also seems irksome to him that some are 20 feet on the fly, and some are 10 feet, once again alluding to regulations. Of course, many flags of the period were almost square. I also took the liberty of painting a couple of the flags, rather than sewing on the design. It's my opinion that this is correct as well on some of the more intricate patterns. As far as materials, I've used linen, hemp, wool, and yes, due to budget, some cotton. Let's face it, the industry thinks that all pirate ships are the Queen Anne's Revenge, and that all pirate ensigns should be of the size for a flagship. No dugout canoes, pinnaces, sloops, etc.

Bah! Conventional, uncreative lugs, the lot of them! And don't they realize that small ships are faster and make for better getaways?

Sorry about your Month from Hell, too. 'Tis a pity that problems like to gang up on a fellow like that.

[Black Hearted Pearl]

Aye mate, sorry about your "month from hell". Hope things are looking up for you now. Just to let you know, we appreciate you at the pub.

[LadyBarbossa]

Hopes all is well with the Colours.

It's fun but also time consuming and a challenge to make Colours be it a Pirate flag or the Union Jack or even a unit Regimental. Done those and the pirate flag has to be the worst and time consuming. Especially done by hand.

Again... eager to see your handiwork, Bones! I'll be lookin' for the flags you made in the films. :)

[Tartan Jack]

As there has been some discussion of flags, here is a bump from a year ago.

Note-> color issues.

[Brit.Privateer]

I have a question about the yellow flags Foxe. When you say they are yellow, what exactly do you mean. Were they just a solid yellow flag, or was it a solid yellow flag with aditional symbols on them, or were the flags partially yellow? Also, as it seems that colors and symbols all represented something on flags, what significance did yellow have?

[BILLY BONES]

Since someone has reinstated this topic, I thought I'd add an addendum. I made several Islamic and Chinese flags for the movie, and few of them will be seen, mainly because they didn't have a skull and crossbones on them! Go figure! I remade one of Roberts' flags, and actually improved on the first one considerably. Unfortunately, it was aged by putting it in a cement mixer with volcanic rock, and then washed in a washing machine. I was e-mailed by the propmaster, who complained that a lot of the paint came off. Well, DUH! I designed a flag for Sparrow, with suggestions from the Production Designer. Never got to make it, but I understand it has been made, and will show up in third film.

[Fox]

The yellow flag was described by George Shelvocke in about 1718; he wrote that pirates were recogniseable by their yellow flags with black skeletons on. Now, it's only one source, but Shelvocke knew a thing or two about pirates, and the context makes it fairly clear that he thought the yellow flag with a black device was common, if not standard (pardon the pun). Since we have little other evidence for pirate flags of that period there's no real reason to think he was mistaken, the real age of the black flag as the universal symbol of piracy seems to have come in the years following 1718 (though there are isolated reports of black flags earlier of course)

The whole thing about different colours having different meanings is, IMHO, overrated. The only flag colour with any consistent meaning in period sources seems to have been red, meaning "no quarter". Other explanations for different colours can be found, but different sources can be contradictory so it is difficult to suppose that there was any kind of universal meaning attached to anything but red.

[Tenter]

...

Edited February 22, 2007 by Hawkyns

[Tartan Jack]

Just found this thread again (I remembered it, but had issues finding it) . . .

Bump, as it remains interesting!

This was on interest in light of the article in the most recent issue of Pirate Magazine (got my copy yesterday).

As for red, . . .

I'm thinking that red was used by English pirates directly in relation to red being the "privateer" flag colour for British privateers. Basically, it is the Royal Navy red field ensign, but w/o the royal standard in the canton. Logically, the "private" warships operating as commerce raiders used such a symbol to distinguish themselves from the commissioned warships, which many "pirates" thought of themselves as being or formerly were employed as and continued to engage in after the end of their letters of marque entitled activities.

Basically, the red was used as a continuation of legal activities, even if the governments didn't necessarily recognize those flying it anymore. Also, this gets into the "fuzzy" line between privateer (legal) and pirate (illegal).

Is that a reasonable conclusion or are there problems w/in it?

Edited May 4, 2010 by Tartan Jack

[Fox]

Not a bad conclusion, but possibly one problem:

The red flag, signifying "no quarter" goes back further than the red ensign used by either the Royal Navy or English privateers. English ships fighting the Armada were supplied with a "bluddey flag", for example. Neither was it a specifically English practice: I think it's Ringrose's account which talks about Spanish ships hoisting their red flags to try and intimidate the buccaneers (who, undaunted, raised their as well).

[Tartan Jack]

So, he solid red wasn't specifically used by Privateers in the late 1600s and early 1700s (as I've oft red)?

If that a myth that has become a standard (and hence uncited) "fact," it changes quite a but on the early flags that would have been used by British privateeers and "semi-privateers."

Also, thanks for the info on the "no quarter" being older. Did it carry the meaning of "no quarter, unless you surrender immediately" or "no quarter, period" when seen at sea?

[Captain McCool]

Since someone has reinstated this topic, I thought I'd add an addendum. I made several Islamic and Chinese flags for the movie, and few of them will be seen, mainly because they didn't have a skull and crossbones on them! Go figure! I remade one of Roberts' flags, and actually improved on the first one considerably. Unfortunately, it was aged by putting it in a cement mixer with volcanic rock, and then washed in a washing machine. I was e-mailed by the propmaster, who complained that a lot of the paint came off. Well, DUH! I designed a flag for Sparrow, with suggestions from the Production Designer. Never got to make it, but I understand it has been made, and will show up in third film.

Mr. Bones, I would be thrilled to know which of your flags actually did make it into the fiml! I thought several of the more "ethnic" ones were quite beautiful, and I was wondering if they were yours. Also, does this mean you were the man responsible for this?

Because if so, I would like to virtually/digitally/imaginarily shake your hand. I LOVE this design. It combines undeniable elements from historical pirate flags with obvious traits of the character who flies it. Totally brilliant. Incidentally, the photo you see here is actually a replica made for me by my girlfriend, and I proudly wave it whenever I don my dreadlock wig.

If this is not your design, however, please excuse my prattling on about it, and I would be extremely interested to know what yours looked like!

Edited May 5, 2010 by Captain McCool

[Fox]

True, the crossed bones are undeniably historical...

[Captain McCool]

Har har. I did say "elements" didn't I?

Perhaps I should have said "element."

What I was trying to say really, was that the flag seems plausable. Given all the the other ones out there, most elements in this flag look as though they plausably could have been part of a real jolly roger. It's not overly complicated, it's not got any glaringly anachronistic characteristics, and it clearly represents the pirate who flies it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Captain McCool

[Tartan Jack]

Since someone has reinstated this topic, I thought I'd add an addendum. I made several Islamic and Chinese flags for the movie, and few of them will be seen, mainly because they didn't have a skull and crossbones on them! Go figure! I remade one of Roberts' flags, and actually improved on the first one considerably. Unfortunately, it was aged by putting it in a cement mixer with volcanic rock, and then washed in a washing machine. I was e-mailed by the propmaster, who complained that a lot of the paint came off. Well, DUH! I designed a flag for Sparrow, with suggestions from the Production Designer. Never got to make it, but I understand it has been made, and will show up in third film.

Mr. Bones, I would be thrilled to know which of your flags actually did make it into the fiml! I thought several of the more "ethnic" ones were quite beautiful, and I was wondering if they were yours. Also, does this mean you were the man responsible for this?

Because if so, I would like to virtually/digitally/imaginarily shake your hand. I LOVE this design. It combines undeniable elements from historical pirate flags with obvious traits of the character who flies it. Totally brilliant. Incidentally, the photo you see here is actually a replica made for me by my girlfriend, and I proudly wave it whenever I don my dreadlock wig.

If this is not your design, however, please excuse my prattling on about it, and I would be extremely interested to know what yours looked like!

True, the crossed bones are undeniably historical...

Har har. I did say "elements" didn't I?

Perhaps I should have said "element."

What I was trying to say really, was that the flag seems plausable. Given all the the other ones out there, most elements in this flag look as though they plausably could have been part of a real jolly roger. It's not overly complicated, it's not got any glaringly anachronistic characteristics, and it clearly represents the pirate who flies it.

MacCool,

Take Foxe's comments in light that this thread is in the "Captain Twill" section and Foxe created this site:

http://www.bonaventure.org.uk/ed/flags.htm

Eventually, he will get his book on pirate flags published. I'm REALLY looking forward to that one! I want a signed copy . . .

The "Jack Sparrow flag is derived from the one attributed to Every/Avery, which Foxe argues:

"Source: Flags 1 and 2: None yet found. According to most secondary sources the earliest bona fide record of a skull and crossbones type pirate flag comes from 1700 (see Emmanuel Wynne), and this flag of Avery's clearly predates that by 6 years. This flag alone makes me extremely doubtful of the authenticity of the much quoted National Maritime Museum manuscript, for the profile skull, earring and bandanna are devices not seen on any authenticated pirate (or other) flag of the period. Indeed a study of period depictions of pirates will reveal that earrings and bandannas did not really become associated with pirates until the paintings of Howard Pyle in the 1880s and later."

So, he is talking from a strict historical sense (what is known on the real flags actually referenced in primary source documents).

MacCool, I see what your saying and agree that it is MUCH better than I had expected when I heard they were going to reveal a unique one for Sparrow in the film. It is actually in the realm of what is oft accepted by "pirate historians" and included in pirate "history" books (even if several can't be documented before 1923).

[Captain McCool]

Yep, I'm familiar with the site, actually. And I keep hearing good things about this mythical book of his... When it does finally come out, I'm definitely getting my hands on a copy.

Anyway yeah, I figured it was a Henry Avery derivative, which I always thought looked somewhat suspect, if only for the bandana and earring included. Seems more Howard Pyle than something a real pirate would have flown, which is basically what Foxe says right there.

But regardless (and regardless of this being Twill), I do like the final design for Sparrow's flag a lot, for all the reasons I mentioned above, as well as those you did.

But then, I'm one of those weirdos who loves the actual history of pirates AND the PotC franchise equally (though perhaps for different reasons), heh.

[Daniel]

The red flag was used in the 1650s by Admiral Tromp of the Dutch Navy simply as a signal to all friendly ships to attack the enemy. It had no apparent significance to giving or not giving quarter. This is mentioned in Time Life's Seafarers book on the Dutch Wars, named Fighting Sail IIRC. At some point, the red flag acquired the name pavillon nomme sansquartier, "flag named no quarter," according to Cordingly, but I think that was later in the 17th century.

[Captain McCool]

Seems like Mr. Bones hasn't been on in a while. Bummer really. I'm terribly curious about his flags in the movie.

[Tartan Jack]

I'm pretty sure the Sparrow design is his, but not the construction.

[Captain McCool]

Yeah, that was my understanding. I'm also curious as to what other of his designs made it into the film.

[Tartan Jack]

As promised at the Washington Pirate Parlay, here is the bump of the "Great Jolly Roger" thread.

Much of what Foxe discussed there is also here.

Oh and . . .

Damnation to the Turnip Man!!!

[Bos'n Cross]

A health to the old pretender!

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Well this is loosely related to the tread as there was talk about colors of flags. So:

Can anyone tell what is the meaning of following British flags of the 1707-1801 era? I have never found any explanations. Were they used by certain groups (like red used by merchants or blue by the navy) or was there a regional meaning (like red flags for the Atlantic and blue for the Indian ocean)?