Leathernecks

[Mad Matt]

The United States Marines are nicknamed "Leathernecks" for the tall leather collars worn in uniform near our inception in 1775.

I'm wondering if one of you naval history buffs can figure about when the leather collars were first being used, and if they may have been used by pirates (although I have not seen any pirate pics with the standing collars).

Carry on.

[blackjohn]

My educated guess would be no. The leather neck stock is, as far as I remember, is a later period thing. And it wasn't used solely by the Marines. The Continental Army used them too. At least, in theory, because supply issues with the Army often leaves such matters of what was actually worn up to debate. Heck, the same would probably go for the Marines too. At the earliest, I'd guess it goes back to the Seven Years War, maybe with the Prussians. If I get some free time, maybe I'll dig around for a more authoritative answer.

ps - neck stock's were a common clothing item during the RevWar. They could be made from leather, cloth, or horsehair. I've always wanted a horsehair stock. The cloth stocks don't work well, and generally don't leave one looking very soldierly.

[Jib]

Friends this isn't gospel but I believe the heavy neck pieces you speak of are called 'stocks'. The term Leathernecks goes back to the Spanish American war. If I remember correctly the leather was used to limit the use of knives in melee by Malay and Phillipino natives against the US Marines.

Perhaps a former Marine can confirm/ or explain?

[Mad Matt]

Aye, matey! I am a Marine! Don't know the exact time period and particulars, tho. Thought I could get a hand, here. They were originally used to protect the neck from sabre blows during on-ship fighting. That's the extent of my knowledge. I assumed the Marines saw someone else using them, and adapted them to the combat uniform of the day. Just trying to confirm who may have worn them first.

[Fox]

Actually I believe their use originated from a desire amongst officers that men should hold their necks straight, their heads up and have a more dignified soldierly look about them.

If you think of the actual size of area protected by a leather stock - what's the point? (It reminds me of the oft-repeated notion that crescent gorgets, common in the 18thC for officers, developed as a protection against the tomahawks of the native Americans)

I don't know the precise date of their origin but I believe they post-date the GAoP.

[blackjohn]

I don't know the precise date of their origin but I believe they post-date the GAoP.

That "protecting necks" things is poppycock as far as I am concerned. Same goes for silk cravattes.

I did some checking on the Prussians, and it seems going back to the SYW they were wearing cloth neck stocks. So, maybe it is an genuinely American/Rev era form of stock. I suppose leather could've been a viable substitute for cloth. And I know from experience that it does make for a more soldierly appearance.

Oh, glad to see you are back Ed.

[Monterey Jack]

Actually I believe their use originated from a desire amongst officers that men should hold their necks straight, their heads up and have a more dignified soldierly look about them.

If you think of the actual size of area protected by a leather stock - what's the point? (It reminds me of the oft-repeated notion that crescent gorgets, common in the 18thC for officers, developed as a protection against the tomahawks of the native Americans)

I don't know the precise date of their origin but I believe they post-date the GAoP.

I agree with Foxe on all of the above; from what I've read they were designed to force the head to stay at a more "attentive" angle, looking more proper. Kind of like the cut of the officers coats of the 1700s. The one I made looked like crap til I stood at attention and said to myself, "aha!"

I do that a lot these days...

Haven't found any examples of the "leatherneck" prior to 1812.

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

I (and all of you know this) am not the expert but I have two cents to add in here. Is it not then that when the knights jousted the armour was there for protection. but wasn't it there in the 9th century as well in leather? And over the centuries leather necks were for protection from flying blades, long or broadswords and battle axes in war? and as waring protective garb found its place within the regions of the planet certain ideas too were brought to the Americas for practicality and use. Leathernecks be older than the good ole U S A, way older. in fact officers coats weren't around till the seventeenth century. The infantry in japan were trussed in leather as well (if i'm not mistaken) uniforms weren't of avail within many countries leaving the warrior to create his own garb. Mine would have had standing leather around me neck that be fer certs. Ok tell me to go away now......

[Monterey Jack]

I (and all of you know this) am not the expert but I have two cents to add in here. Is it not then that when the knights jousted the armour was there for protection. but wasn't it there in the 9th century as well in leather? And over the centuries leather necks were for protection from flying blades, long or broadswords and battle axes in war? and as waring protective garb found its place within the regions of the planet certain ideas too were brought to the Americas for practicality and use. Leathernecks be older than the good ole U S A, way older. in fact officers coats weren't around till the seventeenth century. The infantry in japan were trussed in leather as well (if i'm not mistaken) uniforms weren't of avail within many countries leaving the warrior to create his own garb. Mine would have had standing leather around me neck that be fer certs. Ok tell me to go away now......

Oh sure, play the "common sense" card!

I am a leatherworker by trade, and in one sense you're right about leather being used for protection dating back to probably Cain and Abel. (Abel used the wrong leather obviously). There is evidence in some cultures of leather in other forms being used to protect the neck, but the question seemed to be specific to the leather collars of the marines. Those collars (which I still don't think were there for protection) are to my knowledge limited to the late 1700s/early 1800s.

Now; I also fence a lot of singlestick and while I have a mask and heavy leather padded jacket with a leather collar I've never been hit in the neck. That's not to say it wouldn't happen, but from the cut patterns that were taught, and from practical application of sabre and cutlass techniques the head, sides of the head and shoulders are more often the target. The standing collar in the case of the 1812 Marines would do little by way of protection.

[Hrothgar Addams]

Here be the straightest poop from Leatherneck Magazine's web site, and I Quote . . .

"leatherneck: A U.S. Marine. (The Marine uniform originally had a leather-lined collar.) Since the days of the Barbary pirates, U.S. Marines have called themselves "leathernecks." Legend and lore have it that the term leatherneck was derived from leather neckbands worn in the late 1700s to protect Marines from the slash of the cutlass. Another more likely reason is that the high stocks were worn for discipline to keep the Marines' heads high and straight. Neither explanation has ever been verified. Whatever the reason, the name leatherneck stuck and the distinctive dress blue uniform blouse still bears a high stock collar to remind Marines of the leatherneck legacy. Leatherneck: Magazine of the Marines."

Pirates with leather neck stocks? Only If they're into that sorta thing.

[Captain Bob]

So now that the "leatherneck" mystery has been definitively resolved, would anyone like to take a crack at why Marines are called "jarheads"?

Edited November 14, 2005 by Captain Bob

[Mad Matt]

Arrr. Watch it, matey! That's 'Marines', not 'marines'!

[Captain Bob]

Arrr. Watch it, matey! That's 'Marines', not 'marines'!

Kee-doke! It's been edited accordingly. Does this mean you don't know (about 'jarhead') either?

Cap'n Bob

[Mad Matt]

"Jarhead" - A slang term used by sailors as early as World War II to refer to members of the Marine Corps, drawing the term from the resemblance of the Marine dress blues uniform, with its high collar, to a Mason jar which at the time was made from blue glass.