Fabric Question

[Deadeye]

Would Raw Silk have been common enough during the GAoP to be made into a shirt for reenacting? Contrary to popular belief, I want to show a bit of individuality, but not way out in left field

[MadMike]

I don't remember seeing any references to silk shirts in the books I've read, estate inventories, nor period references, but will take a look again. Silk vests or gentleman's coats, yes, but not shirts...

Most gentleman's shirts were made of fine bleached linen with ruffles at the neck and wrists.

If I find a reference will let ya know...

Yours, &c.

Mike

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I have never seen refrence to silk shirts either... but maybe Foxe might have more to add.

And even if there were silk shirts, I doubt very seriously that they would be the raw silk variety.

The term Raw Silk is a little confusing. I am assuming that you are meaning Silk noil. Silk noil is spun and woven from the refuse left after the silk cocoons have been reeled. It would have been considered waste during our period and not used as a "fine" garment.

The other type you maybe referring to are dupioni and shantung these are the silks with all the slubs in them. These would not have been used because those irregular slubs that we find desirable today would have looked like flaws back then, and silk with so many obvious slubs would have been thrown away or used as padding rather than worn as clothing.

Again, if you want something truly different than everyone else and still be period correct, try a checked linen (that is woven checks not printed) shirt made in the correct pattern..

You will stand out from the other fantasy ruffled pirate shirt folks and still have the authenticity high ground.

GoF

[Deadeye]

Thanks mates. the reason I asked is that i saw a Raw silk shirt from Barkertown Sutlers that they claim is 1730-1770 pattern, so i was just curious.

GoF, any idea where i can get checked linen?

[JoshuaRed]

Yeah I'd like to get myself some checked linen too.

[William Brand]

Was it available as material that could have been used for shirts? Yes.

Would it have been widely used for shirts in the western world? No. There are several reasons why.

1 - Wool is an insulator, even when wet. You can get soaked through in wool and still stay warm. This makes it more practical at sea.

2 - Cotton, flax and linens are more available in the area of the colonies and the carribean. They are cheaper and therefore easier to repair and maintain.

3 - Silk was often an import, whereas all other local materials could be replaced with ease. All other reasons are covered already by Gentleman of Fortune.

Still, there are records of several pirates who wore exotic clothing to be more ostentatious. You could certainly justify being more flamboyant. It would be more accurate to have a silk vest than a shirt, but in the end, it is up to you.

Still, I think that Foxe should have the last word on this.

[Matusalem]

Unless pirates hijacked a merchant vessel coming from China, silk was not really that readily available.

Silk only came from one place: China. Most of that fabric was of the kind to make robes, you know, with all the dragon embroidery...not the sheer lacy stuff used in today's undergarments.

[Duchess]

What about a silk brocade for an outer garment/coat?

[MadMike]

A brocaded silk damask is pictured on the V&A website, the caption reads it as dating from 1712-1715 and as part of a woman's petticoat or gown-

"Materials & Making

The fairly complicated woven structure of this silk is highlighted with brocading. The technique of brocading allowed different colours to be introduced into the pattern of a fabric in specific, sometimes very small areas. It was a more laborious process for the weaver than using patterning wefts running from selvedge to selvedge, but the resulting effect could be much more varied and lively. "

GoF can supply more info, his site has some great links to period style silks.

Yours, &c.

Mike

"Silk... what the hell is silk?"

"Silk, don't ya know nothing? It's made outta worms..."

Charlton Heston and Brian Keith in "The Mountain Men"

[blackjohn]

For a shirt, no, I've never come across a reference for one.

As for silk in general, the Huguenots in Spitalfields were silk weaving demons. They took imported raw silk and wove it into all kinds of stuff!

[Deadeye]

Good to know about the silk. I appreciate all the posts. Now im in the market for linen or somethin else that would work, perhaps Fustian. Correct me if im wrong, but isnt Fustian as Linen/cotton blend?

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Silks were available in many types for outter garments. Damasks, Grosgrains, velvets, Atlas, tafettas etc, (and they were expensive then too!).

But in the western world, I have not read any refrences to silk shirts.

As for fustian

It covers a large area. Historically they could have been made with wool and there are documented worsted fustians in the UK at Norwich weavers in the 14th Century.

Later, they became a textile of linen warps and cotton wefts. Linnen made up the long length wise weaving strands and cotton made up the shorter crossways weaving strands.

This is one of the reasons that "commercial" cotton doesn't come onto the scene until later in the 18th century because the technology to make cotton threads strong enough (and long enough due to its short fibre nature) did not develop until then.

By the 19th century, fustians are made up of all cotton.

Calico Jack is famous for the Calico printed clothing that he wore. Traditionaly, calicos were coming in from India and then (as it is now) labor and matrerials were cheaper. These imported Calicos began to flood the markets in the early 18th century in England and as a response to proctect the native textile industries, the English Authorities banned their importation and "outlawed" them.

Of course this only served to make them the "in" fashion to have and increased their popularity. Also, the English market began to make thier own "calicos" to meet the demand.

Its important to note that during this period, cotton fabrics were probably not nearly as "fine" as they are today and the looms were probaby only around 20-30" wide. The printing was done by block printing and would have a much different look than a 2005 "calico".

If you want to do yourself a big favor, go to the library and see if you can get a copy of Textiles in America 1650-1870.... even if you can get it on inter-library loan it would be worth your while.

GoF

PS

I am putting together a spread sheet of fabrics that were available during the GAoP and as soon as i finish it, I will stick it up on my site.

GoF

[Fox]

I don't think I should have the last word on anything, but thanks for the compliment.

I don't recall ever having come across any references to silk shirts in an 18thC maritime type context, but I have come across them elsewhere (not very often though). Without really looking into it I would say that a silk shirt would be ok provided you can justify to yourself having a garment way out of your price range - and even if you made a million ducats pirating would you really spend it on a shirt?

Word of warning, unless you do a lot of re-enacting in the cold I'd recommend away from silk shirts for practical reasons - they get damn hot!

[Deadeye]

Word of warning, unless you do a lot of re-enacting in the cold I'd recommend away from silk shirts for practical reasons - they get damn hot!

Way ahead of you on that. Thanks fer the input, as I have already decided to nix the silk idea. And My Wench reminded me last night just how hot that wormy stuff gets!

[MadMike]

Here are some notes from patterns via the Victoria and Albert Museum-

"Coat, c. 1720-7. Heavy fawn silk.Button-holes worked in darker fawn silk to match basket weave buttons. The last eight [on the front], also the back, button holes are false. The deep cuff comes over the elbow and the back seam is open from X. lined silk in a lighter shade"

Believe I copied the page from Maclellan's book, can't remember...

You can search the V&A collection online here-

http://images.vam.ac.uk/ixbin/hixclient.ex...main/index.html

Yours, &c.

Mike

[kass]

Would Raw Silk have been common enough during the GAoP to be made into a shirt for reenacting?

No... But let me explain why.

The silk called "raw silk" by modern fabric stores and clothiers is really a fabric called silk noil. Silk noil is made from the refuse left over after all the really good silk has been reeled off the cocoons and whatever is left has been spun. Call it "bottom quality silk" if you like. It is called "raw" because it doesn't have the sericin (silkworm goo) removed from it. Smell it sometime. It smells like bug guts. That smell never goes away.

In other words, it's junk. It's modern junk. It's $2 a yard and they have to add chemicals to it to make it stick together when they spin it. It shrinks like mad and falls apart faster than cheap cotton.

Modern costumers make shirts out of silk noil ("raw silk") because they think it looks like linen, and it's a lot cheaper than linen. And after all "silk is period".

But this silk isn't period. Period.

[kass]

Yeah I'd like to get myself some checked linen too.

Never fear, my birthday bro'! I am here!

Seriously, my favourite source for linen often has checked linen for sale. It's really just the right stuff and no more than $6 a yard!

Here's the link: Checked linen

You'll have to search for it. Click on "Fabrics". Put "linen" in fabric content and "yarn dye" under type and you'll find some.

I don't know how early we start seeing checked shirts, though. I make them for Rev War, but I don't recall seeing them in any GAoP illustrations. Of course, I haven't specifically looked either...

Kass

[JoshuaRed]

Wow it's our lass Kass!! Great to see ya! Almost our day, isn't it? Thanks for the link, I'll definitely be gettin some this fall!

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Kass

The Admiralty Slops contract call for

"Shirts of blew and white chequer’d Linnen" in the 1706 Contract...

The 1690-94 contract calls for blue shirts.

By while you are hunting up sources.... do you know where we can get some

Grey Kersey Wool? I think they make/made civil war uniforms out of Kersey but I will be damned if I can find it (under $30 per yard that is).

And also... Wool Duffel Ever see that for sale?

GoF

[kass]

Hi Josh. Yes it is! Of course we're closing on our house on the 4th, so I am expecting that all I'm getting for my birthday this year is a mortgage.

Thanks for the refs, Greg. I appreciate that! Now I know that checked shirts go that far back. Cool!

Kersey... I'll keep my eyes peeled, but I haven't found it for any cheaper than that either.

Wool Duffel? Never heard of it.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

You know... like a duffel coat? It apparently is the same thing as shagg. I have found %100 wool duffel at http://www.siltex.com/ but they have not returned my inquiring e-mails

GoF

[kass]

Oh, yes I see. The only place I've heard of finding shagg is in England. I have never seen it here at all. Sorry.

[JoshuaRed]

Thanks again for the link, Kass. What do you folks think of this particular linen? Methinks it could do the job nicely:

"Blew Chequed Linen"

[Deadeye]

Looks Fine to me, Josh. Might have to get me a few yards and make me a new Circus Tent, err... I mean shirt

[kass]

I think it's gorgeous. Matter of fact, I think there's an apron or a kerchief in the Chester County (PA) Historical Society's collection that is very similar in pattern to that. Nice...