Slops

[Pirate Petee]

Anyone know where I can get a pattern, preferably free, for slops.

[blackjohn]

I'm pretty certain I've got a scaled down version laying about somewhere...

[blackjohn]

Sorry, can't find them here. Maybe they are at work. I'll check there tomorrow.

[Rumba Rue]

I can make you a pattern that's really easy to use. Just uses either a draw string or elastic waist (more comfortable). No cost.

[callenish gunner]

what style slops are you looking for ....are you looking for accurate period wear or just pull on pants ........depending on what you're looking for i should be able to get a pattern for you ....i have about 6 different style pants to build from

[Captain_MacNamara]

I'm interested in a pattern as well... mine ran off.

for mine... just baggy sailor-is pants would work.

what styles do you have?

[blackjohn]

As I recal, my fellow pirate Scurvy Hanna, great maker of stuff, took an old pair of jeans and cut 'em up to use as his pattern.

And I found the pattern I have. PM or email me if you are interested.

[Pirate Petee]

Well, it came down to this. For the upcoming pirate fair I am going to make a new costume. Well all I needed was a new waistcoat and slops. I only really have time to make one or the other, all the waistcoats I have found are kind of expensive and the slops are not. So I am going to try and buy slops from jas town and make the waistcoat, but if jas town cant make them in time, I'll have to make them.

[Pirate Petee]

Ok looks like Jas town can't get them made in time. So maybe someone can email me the patterns for the slops, please? Waistcoat and slops, in two weeks, oh man. So I'm going to be a sewing fool.

[Killian]

Good luck my friend, I feel for you.

[blackjohn]

Ok looks like Jas town can't get them made in time. So maybe someone can email me the patterns for the slops, please? Waistcoat and slops, in two weeks, oh man. So I'm going to be a sewing fool.

I'm on it. I put them some place and send you the link. I hope I've got all the parts. You'll need to buy some tracing paper and draw the patterns by hand, or take it to a photocopier place to see if the can enlarge them to 1:1. Good luck!

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Ok... here is a rough pattern for a style of slops.

There is a full size jpg on my site at

http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/sailorskit.htm

Please don't make em out of cotton! Linen, hemp, osnaburg, fustian are ok

Skip the waistcoat and make a sailors short jacket... I am on vacation till next Thursday, and I can post a pattern then.

GoF

[Killian]

That's a very useful site, thanx.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I'll clean it up and make it prettier when I get back next week.

GoF

[Patrick Hand]

I'll have to wait untill Gof gets back from vacation to ask about his pattern, But from what I can figure out from period drawings, and other patterns, the butt should be baggier.... To make the breeches with a baggier butt, the center back seam, has no curve to it, and is longer than modern pants......

http://photobucket.com/albums/b97/PatrickH...nt=breeches.gif

I have to get off my butt, and write the instructions on how to make the pattern for breaches..... and post it on my web page (along with how to draft the pattern for veneatians....)

Please don't make em out of cotton! Linen, hemp, osnaburg, fustian are ok

I agree with Gof about not using cotton for the Final pair, but using cotton untill you get the pattern right does save money..... Most of the garb that I made for the Buccaneer Project is out of cotton. And I'm glad I did it that way, because now I can spend the money on period correct fabric, but I know how to make it right. I can't afford to spend $15.00 per yard on hemp canvas, only to discover that the sleeves are the wrong shape.....

[Rumba Rue]

baggy butts, looks like ye got a diaper full!

[Fox]

Certainly with fitted breeches it's not uncommon to find that the waistline is curved so that it's higher at the back. When the breeches are worn with the waist band straight the seat hangs down slightly baggy.

If, as Patrick suggested, you make experimental patterns out of cotton you can always use them as an interlining if one is required.

[Patrick Hand]

Just waiting for GoF to get back from vacation....... not fair to say anything behind someones back.... (and I'm not saying anything bad.... not a flaim war or that crap..... just a discussion ..... (and this sound wierd) about the cut... and fit... of mens period pants,,,,,, (I DO NOT HAVE A FIXATION ABOU . MENS BUTTS.... JUST TRYING TO GET THE PATTERN RIGHT).... OK done with the upper case.....

I am not sure what sourse Gof.... had for his pattern..... I can not argue that untill he gets back...... My source may not be corect..... but I think it is very close.... SO untill Gof is back from vacation..... we will argue it anothe tyme...........

GoF argues .... use period fabric... I argue .... figure it out with cheap stuff... then do it right...... Funny part.... I think we both agree..........

[Patrick Hand]

Foxe.... Gotta ask.... Have you ever figured something out.... and be dang sure it's right,,,,, then "Wango".... someoneelsle shows you your wrong..................damn... living histoy be ...eergh....... interersing.........

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I am having to chime in from a friends computer but will try to answer some questions regarding the slop pattern.

Slops (I will use this term to mean the sailor shorts) and trousers (this term will mean the long sailor pants) are tricky because we have no surviving examples and relatively few pictures depicting them from the 1690-1720s.

Foxe provides some of the evidence on his Period Picture Site but still there is very little in our time frame.

I believe that there is an evlolution of clothing including the slops/trousers. The parents of the garments would be the petticoat breeches and breeches. Earlier (1690-1710?), I am guessing the slops/trousers would probably appear more baggy and "breeches" like. While later in GAoP, I think they may loose some of the "baggieness" and be more like modern trousers.

If we look at the pictures on Foxes site, though few are posterior shots, by the picture "detail from an engraving of the execution of Captain James Lowry, 1752" the trousers don't seem to be very baggy at all. The 1725 picture of "detail of the execution of Stede Bonnet, from 1st Dutch ed. of Johnson" you could interpret them as baggy or not depending on your bias.

Since I titled my pattern as a "style of slops" and a "rough" pattern, it does not have to be the bible for pirates, I think you can take it or leave it, or make adjustments as necessary.

Personally, I think you are right though and they should be more baggy then mine (I like your rough pattern better), but with the lack of concrete period refrences, I think it would be hard to say mine would be wrong. I think that a pattern that was more breeches like (like yours) would be good for the whole period and mine might be suitable for the latter part of the GAoP.

When I clean mine up though, I think I will change mine to have the inseams more like yours.

If anyone else is using a different style or pattern, I would love to hear from you.

GoF

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Other interesting tidbit is that all the trousers seem to have a single button waistband. I wonder if that would be the standard for slops (shorts) too. When I change my pattern I will go to a single button style.

gof

[Fox]

I don't know that there is a "right" way to do slops.

As GoF says there are no surviving examples from the GAoP (certainly none that I know of - corrections VERY welcome), so everything we do must be a mix of extrapolation from other similar garments or garments of similar periods, sensible speculation based on the pictures (we know roughly what they should look like when finished) and reasonable guess work based on trial and error (we get an idea, try it out. It doesn't work, it's probably wrong - it works well, it's probably right, or close to right.)

Personally when I'm making slops I tend to use the natural bagginess of the garment to provide the bagginess round the backside. They don't have to be very baggy (they certainly don't look baggy, they look like the slops in the Lowry print), just baggy enough that you can bend over easily in them, stretch your legs etc. OTOH, when I'm making trousers or tighter breeches I either curve the back and side seams a little to add in a bit more material in the back or I put in the raised waist in the back as I explained earlier. I've seen both methods used on different original garments of various periods.

I think the answer is to look at a period picture, and try make a garment that is as close to the picture as possible in terms of the size and shape of the original, the way it hangs on the body, that kind of thing. Where possible it helps to take into acocunt what is known about the construction of period garments in general, as this often helps with the correct fit and hang etc. Do all those things and you've probably got as close to a period correct piece as you're likely to get.

If you look at all the pictures in my collection there are so many differences, some major, some minor, in the different slops and trousers being worn between 1650 and 1750 that it is impossible to imagine a single standard method of manufacture.

The Admiralty Slop Contracts do give us a little bit of information which, while neither definitive nor particularly illuminating, might be of interest. The best detail comes from the specifications of 1730, they're a little late perhaps but since the garments described are more or less the same as those in the 1706 specs it's not unreasonable to suppose that the details were similar throughout.

Breeches of Kersey, lined with linen, with 3 canvas pockets, and 2 waistband buttons, and 14 other buttons of the colour of the kersey, the button holes stitched with thread of the same colour. (NOTE: the 1706 ASC specified 13 tin buttons and three pockets of leather. Of interest is also the fact that no colour is specified in 1730, previously they had been specified as red) The lengths of leg are specified as being either 24 1/2 or 23 inches, waistbands of either 15 1/2 or 14 1/2 inches. Clearly it is intended that the waistbands should be doubled in length, perhaps because they were laced or buttoned at the back.

Trousers of Brown Osnaburgh Canvas, to be cut out of whole cloth breeches fashion, 2 buttons at the waistband and 2 others. Waist 15", leg 34" (NOTE: the legs of trousers were only between 9 1/2 and 11 inches longer than those of breeches, so probably well above the ankle.)

I agree with both you guys about fabric. Having decent fabric can make all the difference to a piece of kit, particularly one which you've lovingly crafted after much research. BUT it's a bugger to waste that lovely heavy linen you've just found and have a limited supply of on experiments, save it for when you know you've got the pattern right. You can always use the naff gear for when you walk the plank or wade through swamps or whatever...

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Thanks for chiming in Foxe... I always enjoy reading your thoughts (as well as P Hands).

Whereas I am a firm believer in the Slops contracts (whatever that means), I am still a little curious as to which item, if any, is referring to the slops (sailor shorts) that we think of in the traditional sense.

You quoted the Breeches and the Trouser specifications, but the sheer amount of buttons on the breeches almost percludes them from being the "slop" shorts that we think of. Not only that, the pictures on your site only show 1 (one) button at the waistband for trousers/slops.

We know what the breeches look like, and what petticoat breeches look like, so the rest is up to us experimental anthropologist to discover.

gof

[Fox]

I'm not convinced that the Slop Contracts include "slop" breeches as we would imagine them, I posted the info on breeches and trouser in the hope that some of it might be useful for extrapolation.

With regards the two buttons mentioned in the ASC as opposed to the one button depicted in most of the drawings, it is possible that the second button was at the back, since we know the waistband of the breeches and trousers was in two halves.

[Patrick Hand]

I wanted to show the basic patterns that I work with for trousers and slops....

http://photobucket.com/albums/b97/PatrickH...nt=Patterns.gif

The Venetians (1615-1620) are from one of Janet Arnold's books, The knee breeches are from one of the Rev. War sketchbooks. (But I like the "French fly" pattern on GoF's web page much better.)

When I make slops of trousers, I use the knee breeches pattern, but make the legs much wider.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b97/PatrickH...=Untitled-8.jpg

Shows a front and back view of my Venetians, trousers, and slops.... (with that "sexy" baggy butt, caused by gathering at the waist, and a straight seam...)

On the next pair of Venetians (for the Buccaneer Project) I don't think I will make the girth so long... the waist is just to high.... But I have some buckskin colored wool, and some linen to line them with.