History of the Jolly Roger

[Fox]

There is a certain advantage to hoisting a red flag before battle, since its meaning was probably more "if you fight then we'll kill you all without mercy" rather than "we're going to kill you all whatever you do". If you see a red flag hoisted and surrender straight away you'll be fine, but fire one shot and you're finished. It is also possible that hoisting a red flag in the middle of an engagement meant "cease firing and surrender now or receive no quarter".

Incidentally, at least one pirate attack is described in which the pirates first hoisted red flags and then, not receiving a surrender, lowered them and hoisted black flags in their place.

Paul's point about Death is certainly backed up by a number of period sources which describe the skeleton in some pirate flags as "Death", "a Death", or on one occasion "a human skeleton such as Death used to be represented by".

[Master Sully]

When was the standardized images of the common jolly rogers printed ie. Blackbeard's, Calico Jack's, etc... I think it was Time Life books in the 60's or 70's. We've all come to recognize them, but I feel they are through a 20th century artist's eyes. Most of the skull images I've seen carved or inked in the 17th and 18th centuries, look like a light bulb with oval eyes, clinched teeth, and a spade for a nose. Has anyone seen some interesting skeletal artwork from this time period?

[MadMike]

Here's a good place to review-

http://www.capecodgravestones.com/styles.html

Take a look in the section "Grim Winged Skulls from the early 1700's"

Yours, &c.

Mike

[JoshuaRed]

Yeah take a drive through just about any NewEngland cemetery dating back to the 18th century and you'll see at least a couple of death's head motifs on some stones. Often they have wings, cross bones and the hourglass. Truly compelling folk art.

In the cemetery at Williamsburg there is one of those above ground graves with a nice large skull n' crossbones on the side.

[Fox]

I have a handful of contemporary or near-contemporary pictures of pirate flags which I'll try to get round to scanning and posting. Some of them are quite simplistic like you describe, but some of them are more or less the same shapes as modern renditions (with perhaps less detail).

You have reminded me of another project that I was thikning of enlisting the pub's help on - I'll start a new thread for it though.

[Gentleman Jeff]

Ahoy Foxe,

To whom did the first batch of flags that you posted belong? I have not seen these on the internet anywhere, and I have always been fascinated by knowing whose flag was whose.

[Charity]

Alas, the supposed link between Templars and pirates is fanciful and speculative at best. Despite many claims that the Templars used the skull and cross-bones as a flag there has yet to be produced one single piece of evidence to support them.

I have in no way the experience to say it's true or not but we did have a lecture on the Elf fantasy fair pirate edition.

It was a professor from Brittain who has pirate in his own encestors and has studied it a lot along with other things.

He's travelled around the country and world and he seemed like someone who knew what he is talking about and he too told the story of the Knight Templars :) Proff. Rotherham

[Captain Jim]

Here's a good place to review-

http://www.capecodgravestones.com/styles.html

  Take a look in the section "Grim Winged Skulls from the early 1700's"

Yours, &c.

Mike

Aye, I be lookin' up tha' there site and noticed a 'eadstone fer a certain "Jonathan Sparrow" (second under Grim Winged Skulls.) An' as we all know, nicknames fer blokes named Jonathan were "Jon", "John" or "Jack." And did I mention that this 'ere Jack Sparrow was a Captain?

http://www.capecodgravestones.com/easthamp...arrow06cove.htm

[MadMike]

That's awesome, Captain Jim!

I noticed the name but didn't pay any close attention to it. Perhaps there's more to POTC than we realize?!?

Yours, &c.

Mike

[Fox]

The four flags I posted first belonged to (in order)

Bart Roberts

Jean Martel/Captain Kennedy

Captain Nicholls

Thomas Cocklyn

[Captain Jim]

Here's a good place to review-

http://www.capecodgravestones.com/styles.html

  Take a look in the section "Grim Winged Skulls from the early 1700's"

Yours, &c.

Mike

Aye, I be lookin' up tha' there site and noticed a 'eadstone fer a certain "Jonathan Sparrow" (second under Grim Winged Skulls.) An' as we all know, nicknames fer blokes named Jonathan were "Jon", "John" or "Jack." And did I mention that this 'ere Jack Sparrow was a Captain?

http://www.capecodgravestones.com/easthamp...arrow06cove.htm

Is there anyone living near Eastham Cove, on Cape Cod, that could go and get a better picture of the upper corners of this gravestone? There seems to be something in the round symbols on the upper corners. Sparrows perhaps? Could it be that we have found the grave of Captain "Jack" Sparrow?

[Captain_MacNamara]

blown up and enhanced a bit.

[Captain Jim]

Hmmm...Still can't tell fer sure...

[Captain_MacNamara]

looks like it could be sparrows though... and even at the right angle to match jack's tattoo, eh?

very peculiar... :)

[Fox]

Don't be daft, they're clearly Templar crosses...

[Captain Jim]

Awww, Foxe, ye an' yer buckets o' cold water.

[Captain Jim]

Mayhap we should move this portion o' the thread out to where the less historically minded o' us pyrates might see it? Could cause a stir...