Fox Posted August 24, 2005 Posted August 24, 2005 There is a certain advantage to hoisting a red flag before battle, since its meaning was probably more "if you fight then we'll kill you all without mercy" rather than "we're going to kill you all whatever you do". If you see a red flag hoisted and surrender straight away you'll be fine, but fire one shot and you're finished. It is also possible that hoisting a red flag in the middle of an engagement meant "cease firing and surrender now or receive no quarter". Incidentally, at least one pirate attack is described in which the pirates first hoisted red flags and then, not receiving a surrender, lowered them and hoisted black flags in their place. Paul's point about Death is certainly backed up by a number of period sources which describe the skeleton in some pirate flags as "Death", "a Death", or on one occasion "a human skeleton such as Death used to be represented by". Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Master Sully Posted August 24, 2005 Posted August 24, 2005 When was the standardized images of the common jolly rogers printed ie. Blackbeard's, Calico Jack's, etc... I think it was Time Life books in the 60's or 70's. We've all come to recognize them, but I feel they are through a 20th century artist's eyes. Most of the skull images I've seen carved or inked in the 17th and 18th centuries, look like a light bulb with oval eyes, clinched teeth, and a spade for a nose. Has anyone seen some interesting skeletal artwork from this time period? "Remember, on a pirate ship, in pirate waters, in a pirate world, ask no questions. Believe only what you see. No, believe half of what you see."... Burt Lancaster DUM SPIRO SPERO... WHILE I BREATH, I HOPE
MadMike Posted August 24, 2005 Posted August 24, 2005 Here's a good place to review- http://www.capecodgravestones.com/styles.html Take a look in the section "Grim Winged Skulls from the early 1700's" Yours, &c. Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
JoshuaRed Posted August 24, 2005 Posted August 24, 2005 Yeah take a drive through just about any NewEngland cemetery dating back to the 18th century and you'll see at least a couple of death's head motifs on some stones. Often they have wings, cross bones and the hourglass. Truly compelling folk art. In the cemetery at Williamsburg there is one of those above ground graves with a nice large skull n' crossbones on the side.
Fox Posted August 25, 2005 Posted August 25, 2005 I have a handful of contemporary or near-contemporary pictures of pirate flags which I'll try to get round to scanning and posting. Some of them are quite simplistic like you describe, but some of them are more or less the same shapes as modern renditions (with perhaps less detail). You have reminded me of another project that I was thikning of enlisting the pub's help on - I'll start a new thread for it though. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Gentleman Jeff Posted August 25, 2005 Posted August 25, 2005 Ahoy Foxe, To whom did the first batch of flags that you posted belong? I have not seen these on the internet anywhere, and I have always been fascinated by knowing whose flag was whose.
Charity Posted August 25, 2005 Posted August 25, 2005 Alas, the supposed link between Templars and pirates is fanciful and speculative at best. Despite many claims that the Templars used the skull and cross-bones as a flag there has yet to be produced one single piece of evidence to support them.I have in no way the experience to say it's true or not but we did have a lecture on the Elf fantasy fair pirate edition.It was a professor from Brittain who has pirate in his own encestors and has studied it a lot along with other things. He's travelled around the country and world and he seemed like someone who knew what he is talking about and he too told the story of the Knight Templars :) Proff. Rotherham
Captain Jim Posted August 26, 2005 Posted August 26, 2005 Here's a good place to review-http://www.capecodgravestones.com/styles.html  Take a look in the section "Grim Winged Skulls from the early 1700's" Yours, &c. Mike Aye, I be lookin' up tha' there site and noticed a 'eadstone fer a certain "Jonathan Sparrow" (second under Grim Winged Skulls.) An' as we all know, nicknames fer blokes named Jonathan were "Jon", "John" or "Jack." And did I mention that this 'ere Jack Sparrow was a Captain? http://www.capecodgravestones.com/easthamp...arrow06cove.htm My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around...
MadMike Posted August 26, 2005 Posted August 26, 2005 That's awesome, Captain Jim! I noticed the name but didn't pay any close attention to it. Perhaps there's more to POTC than we realize?!? Yours, &c. Mike Try these for starters- "A General History of the Pyrates" edited by Manuel Schonhorn, "Captured by Pirates" by John Richard Stephens, and "The Buccaneers of America" by Alexander Exquemelin.
Fox Posted August 26, 2005 Posted August 26, 2005 The four flags I posted first belonged to (in order) Bart Roberts Jean Martel/Captain Kennedy Captain Nicholls Thomas Cocklyn Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Captain Jim Posted August 27, 2005 Posted August 27, 2005 Here's a good place to review-http://www.capecodgravestones.com/styles.html  Take a look in the section "Grim Winged Skulls from the early 1700's" Yours, &c. Mike Aye, I be lookin' up tha' there site and noticed a 'eadstone fer a certain "Jonathan Sparrow" (second under Grim Winged Skulls.) An' as we all know, nicknames fer blokes named Jonathan were "Jon", "John" or "Jack." And did I mention that this 'ere Jack Sparrow was a Captain? http://www.capecodgravestones.com/easthamp...arrow06cove.htm Is there anyone living near Eastham Cove, on Cape Cod, that could go and get a better picture of the upper corners of this gravestone? There seems to be something in the round symbols on the upper corners. Sparrows perhaps? Could it be that we have found the grave of Captain "Jack" Sparrow? My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around...
Captain_MacNamara Posted August 27, 2005 Posted August 27, 2005 blown up and enhanced a bit. Captain of the Iron Lotus It is the angle that holds the rope, not the size of the hole.
Captain Jim Posted August 27, 2005 Posted August 27, 2005 Hmmm...Still can't tell fer sure... My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around...
Captain_MacNamara Posted August 27, 2005 Posted August 27, 2005 looks like it could be sparrows though... and even at the right angle to match jack's tattoo, eh? very peculiar... :) Captain of the Iron Lotus It is the angle that holds the rope, not the size of the hole.
Fox Posted August 27, 2005 Posted August 27, 2005 Don't be daft, they're clearly Templar crosses... Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Captain Jim Posted August 27, 2005 Posted August 27, 2005 Awww, Foxe, ye an' yer buckets o' cold water. My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around...
Captain Jim Posted August 28, 2005 Posted August 28, 2005 Mayhap we should move this portion o' the thread out to where the less historically minded o' us pyrates might see it? Could cause a stir... My occupational hazard bein' my occupation's just not around...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now