A little help from me friends!

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

I have many questions that are going to be up and coming through the wondrous resources of me mateys perfect knowledge and the education in maritime history I do not have. I employ any and all within eye shot with challenges as they should come up and will come up fer quite somes times.

This be a first one. Ifin Seville Espania were a shipping port and is now inland Spain (on a river) I have read the reason is that the city's host river be silted up so severely that the late 16th century were it last days of being port to sea.

Here's me question(s)?

What depth would the Spanish Galleons be? (that which be underwater and would cause the river to be non navigateable?) Were ships run aground and lost causing this sea passage's closing? And if so, when?

[blackjohn]

I believe they drew about 12 feet...

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

I know my question being vague as it were deserved that but 12 feet seems nothing in the compensations of mast and full sail weight in high surf and storm seas. What would ya think the distance down (under the water) would be in respect to the ships length, width or height or any combination there of? Is there a certainty or just a rule of thumb estimation for this kind of info?

Are any examples of spanish ships stats (blueprints) from the sixteenth century available on line?

[blackjohn]

hmmm... late 16th century is a little early for me... maybe Foxe would have more info, as he's more into that Sea Dog era than I.

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

I await your recommendation

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

hmmm... late 16th century is a little early for me... maybe Foxe would have more info, as he's more into that Sea Dog era than I.

(whistle noise) Sea information gathering (FOXE) pssssssst!

[Fox]

<Snore...doze...WHA!?!>

Nice to be in demand!

I don't know of anything you'd honestly describe as a plan of a Spanish Galleon in existence, they just didn't draw in that much detail and models were far more commonly used by shipwrights. There are however a handful of what I would call diagrams of 16th century ships still extant.

On the whole it is surprising just how little of the high-charged ships of the 16th century sat below the water-line. I couldn't find a contemporary diagram online (if I have time I'll try to scan a couple and post them) but I did find this picture which is pretty accurate and gives a good idea of the proportions above and below the water.

You might also consider the Mary Rose, a 700 ton ship, larger than most galleons (some galleons were huge, but the majority were smaller. For example, 97 of the 128 ships in the Armada of 1588 were under 700 tons). The recovery of the wreck of the Mary Rose has shown us that she drew about 15'. In the waist, or lowest part of the ship, she stood 11'6" above the water and at the stern was 31' above the water.

Hope that helps,

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

<Snore...doze...WHA!?!>

Nice to be in demand!

I don't know of anything you'd honestly describe as a plan of a Spanish Galleon in existence, they just didn't draw in that much detail and models were far more commonly used by shipwrights. There are however a handful of what I would call diagrams of 16th century ships still extant.

On the whole it is surprising just how little of the high-charged ships of the 16th century sat below the water-line. I couldn't find a contemporary diagram online (if I have time I'll try to scan a couple and post them) but I did find this picture which is pretty accurate and gives a good idea of the proportions above and below the water.

You might also consider the Mary Rose, a 700 ton ship, larger than most galleons (some galleons were huge, but the majority were smaller. For example, 97 of the 128 ships in the Armada of 1588 were under 700 tons). The recovery of the wreck of the Mary Rose has shown us that she drew about 15'. In the waist, or lowest part of the ship, she stood 11'6" above the water and at the stern was 31' above the water.

Hope that helps,

Foxe simply wondrous and thank you, this is a nice picture but of what ship? It certainly has a most top heavy appearance. How on earth did these ships sail around the world. I know many tried and the most didn't make it. But those few those few that did rise to the occasion and maybe just as simply they just willed their ships success, it sets me ta shiver me timbers it does that they even floated. Maybe I should be a fireman? Just kidding! Is there a closeup to actually see this ships inners in more detail?

[Fox]

You're welcome,

I don't have any better close-ups to hand but I'm sure if you searched the net you'd find something easy enough. What I can offer is this

A cutaway diagram of a 1st rate man-o-war of the late 17th century. The difference being that this is not a modern picture but a painting by Thomas Phillips circa 1690.

FWIW I suspect that most failed attempts at circumnavigation were failures because of the people, or the problems of supply, rather than the ships themselves.

[Captain Jacob Badger]

I agree......The galleon itself.....was a huge ship......up to 1000 tons(fully armed)....tho four hundred was then norm(1680's)....it could reach speeds in between 4-8 knots....an' carried 22-76 guns......the draft on a 400 tonner was about a fathom an' a half.......where as a fully loaded.....all guns blarin' galleon would take a hefty two fathom depth........the thing ye gotta remember is that most galleons had square sails wi' stopped the 'sailin'' inta wind.....a broad bottom an' wi the high center of grav( espech the 'poop')......it made fer a very rough an' rolly ride.....just sayin'.....

nice pic tho foxe.....

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

Aye it be a right nice pic and it is of much needed detail fer me studies indeed. Grammercy

I then move on to the accountability of the shipwrights of the late 16th century. I have been looking fer any diagrams and or blueprints of the changes in the galleon that the English were writen about (especially that of the Golden Hind) with the conversion to what was called a "race built galleon" I too have read the shipwrights used no plans and that they had all the measurements and sizes in their heads?? That seems to me to be completely strange with such technical needs be?

[Fox]

Again, I think you'll have trouble finding detailed plans because they didn't use 'em. They didn't just keep measurements in their heads though, models were extensively used which could be scaled up by the shipwrights. A number of diagrams, particularly by the great shipwright Matthew Baker survive showing the different qualities of new designs, but not blueprints or anything of that complexity.

Although much has been written about the Golden Hind the vast majority of it is speculation, there just isn't that much reliable information available. Historians cannot agree even on the size or origin of the ship, let alone her construction. I used to be curator of the Golden Hind in Brixham for several years and we had a certain amount of friendly rivalry with the Golden Hinde in London. The two ships were completely different (as much as two small galleon replicas can be), yet both conformed to the limited amount of information available on the original Golden Hind.

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

that is so wierd. I mean that two off and goin replicas can differ from the same known information astounds me. So hows this??? When (I mean approximately what year) did the spanish start skinning their galleons with lead sheet?

[Fox]

The point I was trying to make is that there is so little detailed information about the original Golden Hind that it's basically impossible to have a guaranteed 100% accurate replica. There are three contemporary pictures of the Golden Hind, and each of them is different. Several sources mention the ship's tonnage as anything between 80 and 120 tons and the only information we have about her dimensions is some very ambiguous records of a special dock built for her in the 1580s.

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

The point I was trying to make is that there is so little detailed information about the original Golden Hind that it's basically impossible to have a guaranteed 100% accurate replica. There are three contemporary pictures of the Golden Hind, and each of them is different. Several sources mention the ship's tonnage as anything between 80 and 120 tons and the only information we have about her dimensions is some very ambiguous records of a special dock built for her in the 1580s.

I get the lack of records and the little to less saved anything about most all tallships. I found mention of archeological finds at sea where the galleons were hull sheathed in lead sheet. Also seemingly it was grained as if by a linen or burlap type of raw material as embossments in the lead are consistant from wreck salvage to wreck salvage. Is there any known records of who (what country) started that trend and how long it lasted?

[Diego Santana de la Vega]

More! What advancements (were there very many) in ship building were given to the Spanish Shipwrights around the times of Drake (Elizabethan England)?