Lets Play... STUMP THE PUB (or stump Foxe!)

[blackjohn]

Thanks John, if you happened to recall the artist there'd be a lollypop in it for you...

How about... Willem van Mieris

[JoshuaRed]

Ooo Ooo! I know this pic! I have it! Damn...let me dig it up and find the info.

[Fox]

Willem van Meiris eh? I'll send you a lollypop, what's your favourite flavour?.

Josh, don't s'pose you've got a colour copy?

[blackjohn]

Don't send it just yet... lets get a confirmation on it first.

Go Josh go!!!

[Coastie04]

I figure I'll lend my few observations. I'm definitely not an expert in period clothing, but have been following many of the recent clothing threads and feel there are some interesting points. First of all, there's buckles on the shoes, but the tab on the side of the shoe on the boy to the right leads me to believe that it was a functional buckle, and not a removable decoration as was mentioned before. However, the boy on the right appears to have left and right shoes. I was under the impression that in the gaop, that the shoes were generally straight-laced.

As for the stick that the boy on the right is holding, could it be nothing more than a fancy walking stick? It appears that he's using it for some support and some diseases back then could easily have forced someone such as that to use a cane. On the top of it, there appears to be a lanyard hanging down from what could be no more than a carved handle. What I can't explain, though, are the disks (for lack of a better word) near the top and bottom. All I can imagine they're for is either decoration of some sort, or some practical purpose that I cannot pin down, like not falling through slits in a dock or something. The boy on the right seems much better dressed than the shoeless one, so is it possible that his family had enough money to allow him to care for some childhood disease that left him with the need to use a cane in style?

Now for a question. What do you suppose that stripe on the right side boy's upper arm is? It appears to be a bandana/ribbon or something either tied or sewn onto the jacket. Was this a style, or was it possibly identifying him as belonging to a ship, being the Captain's aide, or something of that nature?

Coastie

[Fox]

First of all, there's buckles on the shoes, but the tab on the side of the shoe on the boy to the right leads me to believe that it was a functional buckle, and not a removable decoration as was mentioned before

Functional shoe buckles can still be removed and replaced with a lace.

However, the boy on the right appears to have left and right shoes. I was under the impression that in the gaop, that the shoes were generally straight-laced.

I'm not sure exactly when straight lasts were replaced with left and right ones, but I believe that straight shoes were definitely more common in the GAoP. However, two things can easily turn a pair of straight shoes into left and right shoes. Firstly, when you add a buckle to a shoe it has to buckle one way or the other, so by fitting the buckles in opposite directions you give the appearance of having different shoes. Secondly wearing the shoes in will shape them to a certain extent, and wearing them for any length of time will give them a definite shape. I've got 3 or 4 pairs of straight shoes, all of which are now worn in so far that they are uncomfrotable on the "wrong" feet and quite definitely look like left and right shoes. My 18thC buckled pair even more so because of the way they are buckled.

could it be nothing more than a fancy walking stick? It appears that he's using it for some support

Maybe, though it really doesn't look like a walking stick. He may not be using it for support in the picture, but may just be leaning on it (whatever it is). Even if it is a cane I don't think it's just a fancy one, it looks like it has some definite purpose in life, some reason for being the odd shape that it is.

Now for a question. What do you suppose that stripe on the right side boy's upper arm is? It appears to be a bandana/ribbon or something either tied or sewn onto the jacket. Was this a style, or was it possibly identifying him as belonging to a ship, being the Captain's aide, or something of that nature?

I wouldn't like to hazard a guess as to what that is on his arm. Perhaps a colour copy of the picture would make it a bit clearer.

He could be some sort of aide (though perhaps a captain's servant is more likely), but from the composition of the picture is seems he's more associated with the people in the shop than the boy on the left is, who has come from outside the shop. Coupled with his slightly higher standard of dress it seems reasonable to conclude that he is probably of higher status than the ship's boy on the left. He could be a servant boy, midshipman, or perhaps the captain's son (or other relative). The fact that he is playing on the floor suggests to me that he is not associated with the other people in the picture in an "official" capacity, ie. probably not a servant or midshipman.

Come on Josh, we need more information

[blackjohn]

The fella on the right looks like a sailor to me too: short jacket, mariner's cuff. My question is "what is that he's holding?" Whatever it is it looks very interesting and like it has a definite purpose, but I can't make it out.

I believe he is holding the spool from which the fabric was unrolled.

Btw, I really like his hat.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Hmmmm....

This is a very interesting picture...

John, maybe you should break it off into a seperate thread

Dissecting the Pirate: 3 Dutch Captain in Shop????

Good call on the bolt spool thing!

GoF

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Challenge for Foxe or ?

I am trying to make a pattern for the sailors short jacket. Which period picture do you think has the best detail of the short sailors jacket?

The Reade and Bonny photo make it look very baggy. The Woodes group make it look more waistcoat-ish.

Post em if you got em.

Thanks

GoF

[Fox]

I think you could probably justify making a sailor's coat in whichever style you had a preference for. Take this picture for example:

The seaman on the far right has a fairly well fitting short jacket, closer to the waistcoat type design you mention, while the man he's talking to (3rd from right) has a coat which is clearly much baggier, closer to the smock-cut-up-the-front which I have mentioned in previous posts.

It should be pointed out though that event the close fitting coat on the right is clearly slightly larger and longer than the waistcoat he is wearing underneath. That picture dates from 1736, at which time the RN slop contracts specified that the grey kersey coats should be between 3 and 6 inches longer and the ticking waistcoats, and between 2.5 and 4 inches broader. That being the case it seems likely that the jacket and waistcoat being worn by the right hand figure are probably fairly similar to those specified in the contract.

However, since not all seamen wore official slops, and since there is evidence of both fitted and baggy jackets it really is down to your own personal preference I think.