WANTED "the cut of mens clothes" by Waugh

[Gentleman of Fortune]

If any of you overspent on the holidays and needs cash and dosen't mind parting with this book please PM me!

GoF

[Fox]

My grandmother has a copy, which I know for a fact she won't part with, but if you let me know what sort of things you're interested in I *may* be able to borrow it long enough to scan a few pages for you.

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[JoshuaRed]

Hats, Foxe. That would be great! Cocked, monmouth, whatever is in it. Details of various cockades, trim, etc. Many thanks! :)

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I would really like to read the passages on GAoP period justaucorps and Waistocats. Also, I'd like to get my mits on the patterns that she has regarding those items.

And while I have your attention.

I am trying to hunt down more infor on the sailors short jacket of the period. I understand that it is short in the back and long in the front, and has the mariner cuffs... but I would like to see more picures! Close ups too not faint water color of some chicks getting frisked.

Thanks man!

GoF

[Fox]

OK guys, I'll see what I can do. I don't know when I'll next be seeing my grandmother, but as soon as I can I'll email stuff. Just to let you down gently Josh, I don't recall much info on hats if any in Cut of Mens Clothes, but I might have some stuff elsewhere myself.

I'm not sure about mariners' coats being long in front and short at the back particularly, most of the pictures I've seen show roughly the same length all around. There aren't a lot of pictures of sailors' coats from the GAoP that I know of, and it's a pity you don't like the Guayacil engraving (with the chicks getting frisked), 'cos that's the only one I can think of which gives a decent view of the back of a coat from that period.

The only other near-period picture I can think of showing the back is a painting by Gabriel Bray of a seaman of the Pallas leaning on a gun in 1774-75.

I still reckon that the engravings of Bonny and Read from Johnson's General History are among the best depictions of GAoP sailor's clothing

[JoshuaRed]

Yes, along with a slightly-late Hogarth's "The Idle Apprentice Turn'd To Sea".

[Fox]

I'd forgotten what a good picture that is until you inspired me to take another look at it! Thanks!

[JoshuaRed]

Yeah, Hogarth is quickly surpassing Vermeer and Rembrandt as my favorite artist. You won't find ANY 18th century art with more humor and personality than Hogarth. Talk about a man ahead of his time.

In the "Idle Apprentice" you can almost hear the conversation on that boat.

Son: "Momma PLEASE don't make me this! I don't wanna go to sea!"

*Mother crying*: "Son, I'm sorry. It's your father's doing! If only you were a better apprentice at the wigmakers."

Sailor 1: "Psst! Hey lubber! If'n the captain don't like ya, he'll make ya clean his pisspot wit' yer tongue! Oh, and ever see one o' these afore? (Holding the cat o' nines) If'n the captain REALLY don't like ya, he'll peel the hide from yer bum with it! "

Sailor 2 (laughing): "Yeah boy! And anudder thing! We got's a big brawny bosun' what just loves ta share a dark corner o' the hold wit' fresh lil' pinkies like yerself!"

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Foxe

Its not that I don't like the frisking scene... its just that its not a close up so I really can't make out the details. Maybe I should have put a when I said it.

I like Hogarth too. My concern though is that he just started with his silver work in 1720 and not really the cool engraving stuff till the 1730s+. I feel that he starts to "paint" fashions that are more indicitive of the mid to later 18th C.....

My favorite is the Rakes Progress (or whatever its called).

"short jacket"

I guess I am repeating what i have heard on other lists about it being short in the back and longer in the front. THAT is why I want better pictures to study because I, like you, cant determine if they are like that. (too me they seem the same length).

My question is: Is this specific to sailors? Is it a shortened waistcoat or a shortenend justaucorp?

What I would like to do next is post "period" pictures here (in another thread) and we could discuss the details.

Maybe we should start wit Reade and Bonny?

GoF

[Fox]

Its not that I don't like the frisking scene... its just that its not a close up so I really can't make out the details. Maybe I should have put a  when I said it.

With you. Actually, I'm not sure there is a hell of a lot of detail to get anyway. See my comments about smocks below.

"short jacket"

I guess I am repeating what i have heard on other lists about it being short in the back and longer in the front. THAT is why I want better pictures to study because I, like you, cant determine if they are like that. (too me they seem the same length).

If you look at pictures from a range of periods there is a definite trend toward smocks for seamen. The earliest clear pictures of these come from de Bry's engravings of the late 16th century (though they can be found less clearly depicted in much earlier pictures, going well back into the 15th century), then they can be found in paintings and engraving right through the 17th century (including van de Velde's for example), into the 18th (Hogarth's Idle Apprentice etc), the 19th (a million and one pictures from that period), and well into the 20th - I bought one a couple of years back in a yacht shop.

Sure, there are slight changes and modifications over the years, but essentially they stay more or less the same. Loose and fairly baggy, long sleeves, opening at the neck like a polo-shirt. Now, many of the early pictures of short seamen's jackets look a lot like smocks with a full opening at the front, or a sort of smock-coat hybrid. From the mid-late 17th century it's possible to trace the development of the seaman's coat into the pea-jacket (which term was in use definitely in the 1730s at least) of Nelson's time.

In terms of length, all the pictures of seamen's jackets I can think of show them the same length, more or less, all the way round, all but one of the pictures of smocks too (and I'm not convinced about the odd one, it may be the way he's stood) and later pea-jackets were certainly the same length all the way round on the whole. thus, I reckon, that if you're making a seaman's jacket it should probably be the same length all the way round.

If you look at this picture for example (teehee, I'm gonna post it anyway ) you can see a: the coats are the same length all the way round, and b: if they stitched the front up they'd look like smocks: short, loose, not particularly shaped etc.

My question is: Is this specific to sailors? Is it a shortened waistcoat or a shortenend justaucorp?

I think they were more or less specific to seamen. Other people had short jackets, but in a different style on the whole. In terms of patterns, for GAoP I think we're looking more at opened seaman's clothes rather than shortened civilian clothes.

I'm not suggesting for a minute by the way that all seamen's coats were the same, I'm positive there were variations from different times, places, and individual tastes, but generally speaking I think what I said above is borne out by the pictures.

[JoshuaRed]

Wow Greg, this "Cut of Men's Clothes" book IS hard to find! Even abebooks only has the "Cut of Women's Clothes"....

[kass]

That's because they seem to go in and out of print alternately. Last year, you couldn't get Cut of Women's Clothes at all, but Cut of Men's Clothes was everywhere.

[JoshuaRed]

I understand. It took me 4 months to track down a nice vintage set of Dampier's collected works. It was only printed TWICE in the 20th Century, one in 1906 and one in 1968. My copy is the 1906 edition, which was the only one prior to the 60's publishing. And beyond THAT, it gets very pricey. :)