In Defense of the Authenticity Nazis

[hurricane]

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz

[Fox]

Hurricane,

if are reading this message may I ask why, if the thread bores you so, have you bothered to come back knowing full well what its contents are?

[Hawkyns]

I just kinda got lost looking through some F&I reenactors pages (and I was looking for something else.... sheeeesh... gotta love the internet....)

But something that I noticed in thier photos..... lots of them were wearing modern boots.... they were using a modern version of tarps to sleep under.... well I could go on "picking" them apart (not what I wanted to do...) but I am questioning levels of authentisity.....

When I went to rendezvous, I slept in a weland style tent (not period, but it looks ok) there were a lot of non period things, but they "passed"....

It the "10 foot rule" common, what levels of authentisity do others "play" at?

It varies a lot. I can't think of any units that allow modern boots, but there could be some out there. Some do use the 10 foot rule but the guys I know are a lot more accurate than that. Here is a web site for one of the New England groups http://www.snowshoemen.com/ They're a good source because they do some earlier stuff as well, time period of the GAoP.

Rendezvous tend to be farb fests of epic proportions. Wear lots of leather, carry a rifle and a huge knife, and make sure you have a dead animal on your head. Don't get me wrong, there are some good fur trade re-enactors who take it very seriously, but they are not the primary group you meet at rendezvous, at least not here in the East.

The level really depends. I know a lot of people who hand stitch and hand dye all their clothing. I know a lot more who pay specialist tailors to have them custom made. Others only hand stitch the visible seams. The F&I folks and the trekking community tend to be the most accurate of all the various periods I've come in contact with. These are the guys who spend a lot of time reading period journals and researching things to the Nth degree. Just in case you're bored and need another board to get involved with, they are here http://frontierfolk.net/mb/

Hope this helps.

Hawkyns

[JoshuaRed]

Wow Hawkyns that's great you mentioned the snowshoe men - I just happened across their site a few weeks ago and was blown away. I'm hoping to fall in with them once I'm back up in Maine.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Oh don't worry about Hurricane, Foxe. He's just a category 1 and will blow over.

He just feels that HE discussed this issue back in 2003 ad nausem and that there is nothing to dicuss further....

Plus, he is an entertainer, that happens to choose piracy as the medium for making people happy.

Unlike, the UK, in the states, a lot of people feel that you cannot effectively entertain the public while wearing authentic clothing....

I have pulled some of the old topics from obsucrity so that the hundreds of members that have joined since 2003 can get in on the discussion

If you look THIS thread was started in 08/2003.

Personally, I feel that the authenticity of GAOP clothing should be an on going debate/discussion. How else do you learn anything new?

I for one, never knew about the Admiralty Contracts till David R brought them up at the PirateBrethren site.

GOF

[Fox]

Hehe, I was just trying to make him feel as silly as he looked when he took the mick out of me for suggesting that pirates wore colours other than black.

Hurricane being an entertainer doesn't bother me. Hurricane being disinterested in authenticity and discussions thereon doesn't bother me. Hurricane feeling that he can't possibly post to anything remotely scholarly without doing his best to insult people just makes me feel very sorry for him.

I'm contemplating moving to New England now to join the Snowshoemen, looks fun.

[Hawkyns]

I'm contemplating moving to New England now to join the Snowshoemen, looks fun.

If this damned winter doesn't end soon, it may become a year round activity. Here in CT, we just got another 8 inches of snow, night time temps are still between 12 and 20 F, and there's more predicted for tomorrow. And that's SOUTHERN New England .

4 weeks from this weekend is the first major of the season. 5 days under canvas. Could be interesting.

Hawkyns

[hurricane]

Foxe,

Please don't be sorry for me. I indeed have a fantastic kit that is as authentic as anyone's. I do find the history fascinating... in fact, I have studied everything I can lay my hands on. That's also why I visit these "non entertainer" posts occasionally.

What I don't agree with is most of your conclusions of your endless pontifications. Your answers are all black and white - if it isn't in a drawing or a book somewhere, it wasn't possible. I think everything's shades of gray, including what pirates wore, what motivated them, why they committed acts of piracy and how they differed from ordinary seamen. I simply don't take everything at face value as you appear to choose to.

But I am in the minority here in considering other avenues or actually thinking like a pirate would... That's where we differ so... and the fact that you seem to take everything much more seriously than I, scholarly subject matter or not.

Thankfully an ocean separates us in more ways than one.

-- Hurricane

[Fox]

What I don't agree with is most of your conclusions of your endless pontifications

Do endless things have conclusions?

Your answers are all black and white - if it isn't in a drawing or a book somewhere, it wasn't possible.

Nope, my answers are all blue and white, and red andwhite. However, I humbly apologise for my preference for using real historical sources.

I think everything's shades of gray, including what pirates wore, what motivated them, why they committed acts of piracy and how they differed from ordinary seamen

No you don't, you think it's laughable that anyone should think pirates wore colours other than black.

That's where we differ so... and the fact that you seem to take everything much more seriously than I, scholarly subject matter or not.

Ok, I really think you've missed the point of what I was trying to say. The fact is that I don't give a monkey's how authentic your kit is, or whether you think like a pirate or not (which I seriously doubt, but...). My point was I find your manner very offensive. So, and I'm asking nicely here, would it be possible please for you to put a leash on your insults and try to post in a polite and not unneccesarily provocative manner?

Many thanks.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Anyway... back on topic. No wait... I guess we are on topic if we are defending Authenticity Nazis.

We have been asked by mods not to use the "N" word. I like "stitch counter" even less.

Maybe "real-ist" would be better, or how about "the old documentables"

But face it, the reality is that on this side of the pond, less than 10% care about accuracy. Those that do though are pretty fervent about it, and that is a good thing.

The danger is when you think that you know everything there is to know. Most of the good "documentables" are smart enough to know that it isn't possible, and I bet that Foxe is one and I know he is open to alternative ideas and will change his openion when evidence proves him wrong.

There is nothing wrong with asking for evidence. Specualation has its place but documentation is priceless in my book.

[Hawkyns]

Hmmmmm...... Stitch counter doesn't bother me, when doing serious shopping, I actually carry a fabric loup with counter marks on it.

The 'n' word doesn't particularly bother me, either, but then I spent 6 years as a WWII re-enactor in an SS unit.

Old documentables- now this I'm not so happy with. sort of conjures up images of Colonel Blimps with white mustaches and muttonchops carrying magnifying glasses.

Hawkyns

[MadMike]

Hurricane writes "I indeed have a fantastic kit that is as authentic as anyone's".

Great, any suggestions as to sources for clothing, equipment, websites, and the like?

Yours, &c.

Mike

[Diosa De Cancion]

Equality is all I ever ask for fer me and my crew. And when the person is standing in front of me telling me that I can't fly my black flag because it isn't period, I grit my teeth, wait fer them to finish and then point at thier modern watch or nikes and say simply "he who is without sin cast the first stone..." An' if they argue with that, I tell'em "This is my encampment, and I'll do as I damn well please until his Majesty or an official representative thereof tells me otherwise".

:)

I know this may be a little late of a response re: Black Flags.... but Cap Macnamara... fly your black flag as much as you like, for it is authentic.

Those who poo-poo anyone flying a black flag, should do a little more research.... they are in fact the ones who are inaccurate.

While there are few known existing pirate flags from the Golden Age of Piracy. One of those is owned by Pat Croce. I cannot recall which pirate the flag belonged to. It may well be Tew... Pat has many of his items.. but I saw this flag and it is in fact BLACK with the white skull and crossbones.

It is now out of Pat's home and a part of the Pirate Soul Museum in Key West and on display for all to see, as well as many other great artifacts including Tew's treasure chests, weapons, etc.... want to see authentic... there ya go.

Diosa

[blackjohn]

Old documentables- now this I'm not so happy with. sort of conjures up images of Colonel Blimps with white mustaches and muttonchops carrying magnifying glasses.

If I get to wear a pith helmet, sign me up!!!

"A posh, posh, travelin' life, a travelin' life for me..."

[Hawkyns]

If I get to wear a pith helmet, sign me up!!!

Men of Harlech stop your dreaming

Can't you see their spear points gleaming

See their warrior pennants streaming

To this battle field

Men of Harlech stand ye steady

It cannot be ever said ye

For the battle were not ready

Stand and never yield

Hawkyns

[JoshuaRed]

The flag Croce owns is 19th century. There are simply no pirate flags existing from the GAOP, sadly.

Mutton chops? Pith helmets? Monacles? Great big cigars? Scotch? SIGN ME UP!!

[MadMike]

Diosa,

Can you provide the forum with the provenance of the flag at the Pirate Soul Museum?

There is a flag pictured on Cordingly's book "Pirates, Terror on the High Seas". E-mailed the museum in Finland where it's kept but no reply as of yet.

Hope you have everything in order this year for hurricane season, supposed to be as bad as last year.

Yours, &c.

Mike

Up in the panhandle...

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Wow, that is amzing that the Pirate Soul Museum has an authentic GAOP Pirate flag!

Interesting that EVERY historical refrence source I have seen claims that there are no surving flags from the 1690-1720 period....

While there are few known existing pirate flags from the Golden Age of Piracy. One of those is owned by Pat Croce. I cannot recall which pirate the flag belonged to. It may well be Tew... Pat has many of his items.. but I saw this flag and it is in fact BLACK with the white skull and crossbones.

As far as I know, Foxe, Joshua Red, Hawkins, or others have never made the claim that pirate flags weren't black. And contrary to your claim, at lot of research has gone into this by members of this forum.

I think that the point that has been stressed concerning pirate flags is that MOST of what pirate/entertainers/re-enactors know about pirate flags is something that they have either heard frop "somebody else", saw in "Cut throat Island (or other Hollywood pirate fantasy) or from a document from the English Maritime Museum.

I find this post very interesting.

It doesn't say that black flags were not flown, it says that of all the documentable flags, only about half were black and almost a quarter are definately NOT black. Which is interesting because its one of the things that we modern pseudo historians take for granted that a pirate has to have a black flag.

Foxe has a great flag site where he puts forth his collected infromation. I reccomend it to anyone, but please visit it with and open mind and not as if someone is personally trying to discredit your heartfelt beliefs.

[JoshuaRed]

Wow, that is amzing that the Pirate Soul Museum has an authentic GAOP Pirate flag!

If it did, I'd be on the next plane to Miami. I'm not knocking the musuem, it actually looks phenomenal.

[Patrick Hand]

Personally, I feel that the authenticity of GAOP clothing should be an on going debate/discussion. How else do you learn anything new?

like I posted eirlier.... I like "playing " pyrate.... and I like trying to "do" it right..... most of the people close to me just "play" (and there is nothing wrong with that....it is fun) But I want to do both... play pyrate, and do a good as close to acurate buccaneere.... Hawk... Hawkens, and all .... why is there such animosity againtst authentic...?

[Fox]

I think the issue with Macnamara's black flag is that SCA are supposed to be pre1600 (or am I wrong?). Now, a plain black pirate flag would be absolutely fine for that period, Drake flew a plain black flag at Cartagena in 1585. A black flag with some sort of Tudor period device might not be absolutely correct, but it would be believable. Alas though a black flag with a skull and bones, or "anatomy" or other typically "pirate" flag would not really be correct by a century or so.

It is believed that there are no surviving pirate flags from the GAoP. There are a small number of 19th century pirate flags of different origins, and Kheir-el-din Barbarossa's flag is in the Naval museum of Istanbul (though it dates from after he gave up piracy). I'm on the track of two flags which may have survived the GAoP, but I'm not convinced either has survived to the present time, or that I can find them if they have.

[MadMike]

Naturally, we won't see any of the fantasy pirates and their garb in a History Channel documentary. However, there is hope, as I've heard that casting calls for "Swashbuckler II", "Muppet Treasure Island II", and "Dodgeball II" are in the works.

Yours, &C.

Mike

[JoshuaRed]

why is there such animosity againtst authentic...?

I don't really see any animosity against authenticity. If there is, it's because it's simply more work, and not everyone has the drive/time/energy to dig that deep.

That or the animosity is toward those of us striving for authenticity, not the authenticity itself. Maybe we're seen as killjoys.

[Hawkyns]

I think there are probably as many answers to that as there are people who have a problem with it. I know I've been dealing with it for nearly 20 years in half a sozen different groups. None of them are immune, but it does seem more pronounced in the pirate community.

If I had to guess at one reason, I'd say because there is such a wide difference between the reality and the fantasy. From Pyle to Hollywood, there have been hundreds of depictions of pirates, most of them wrong. People get an idea in their head and run with it, and when they run into us, they find that pirates were not, for the most part, flamboyant anti heros. They don't like the concept that most of these guys were working seamen, lived a dirty, dangerous life, and had short careers as pirates. By showing up and presenting the reality, we are raining on their parade and many people can't handle having their fantasies messed with. Tar stained slops, sweat soaked shirts, and an iron hilt cutlass just doesn't draw the ladies like silk breeches, a brocade weskit with no shirt, and a fancy rapier.

Sure, there are other reasons. Some don't like the ruthless killer aspect of reality. Some are jealous of the money that we've put into our authentic kit. Others want to be entertainers, not re-enactors. You name it, they're out there. Don't let it get to you. As I've said before, there is room for all of us. You just have to pick your events for the ones that support your impression.

Hawkyns

[JoshuaRed]

HUZZAH! Well said Hawkyns! I drink to your health.