In Defense of the Authenticity Nazis

[baptiste]

Greetings Mates,

I am Baptiste and this is my first postings to this group. I pray your patients and please read my studied opinion as I tell the tale of two pyrate ships

In my port, the Bay of Saint Francis two pyrate ships are moored. The first is a 1970’s sloop with modern rigging. Her master has painted her black and she has a yellow gun deck. This modern vessel is armed with two modern signal cannons. The kind that shoot 12GA blanks. We know she is a pirate ship because of her flag and “make-up”.

The second vessel is the Royaliste a fine ship with a fine history. Ancient trees were felled to form her mighty keel and sturdy bulwarks. She is now armed with four real cannons. She is truly Mistress to her master who must constantly wait on her demands. She requires a great dedication of time and money to maintain her dignity. Other vessels lower their flags in respect to her. Every time she sails our waters, people take her photos.

I NOW ASK YOU, WHICH VESSEL WOULD YOU SAIL ON?

Your answer is the Royaliste! Why? Because of the hard work and research that her master has given her! Out of respect for this and other grand vessels, should we not put the same effort in our clothing? In our weapons? In our research?

Please share your thoughts with this humble mariner.

[Mad Maudlin McCrumb]

Oh hey.. coming from one of the worst critics of the "Authenticity Nazis" I am behind you 100%. In that case, hell yes, I would rather approach the Royaliste in nothing less than period materials and with proper respect! (not that I would be let on deck, technically, being a female and the sailor's superstitions from back then, and all) I hope to have the honor of boarding that particular vessel someday soon, adn will probably do so with tears of joy, gratitude, adn awe of her beauty in my eyes, and I would do her and her captain no less respect than to be as authentic as humanly possible. I love the history.

My complaints about the SCA Nazis are that they will approach you at an event with a tankard of Pepsi in their hand, wearing Ray Bans and Nikes, and flip me a hard time about having elastic in my wrist bands to keep my sleeves out of the fire, and the fabric on my dress not being authentic. Sorry, can't afford linen this year, bub.

For the Royaliste.. I would wear silk... no question.

[baptiste]

My Dear Lady.

I have had the displeasure of meeting such rouges as ye speak of. They are seldom so qualified to throw the first stone. My quest for authenticity is based on both practicality and a love for history. And it is easier to portray a common mariner in wool and linen that it is to purchase a fake pirate costume!

My mates seek authenticity as part of the enjoyment of our hobby. We are sailors and wish to learn the skills of those how sailed before us.

As a professional mariner, I can tell of my experience working our rugged North Pacific wearing wools and oil skins, Irish sweaters and Scottish bonnets. They still protect the man from the sea!

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

As one who has sailed with the Royaliste on more than one adventure, I give my highest recommendation to the Royaliste. Not only is she a fabulous ship that is a joy to sail on, but her captain is a great guy who is just plain fun to hang out with, on or off his ship. He's been both kind and generous in sharing his ship/home with us in a way that few people are.

...And since ye' be in the bay area lad, do check out Tales of the Seven Seas if you are interested in an easy-going pirate guild- perhaps as a second group to be involved with, one that your group would enjoy partnering with on an event, or just to hook up with now and then for fun when an event strikes your fancy.

www.talesofthesevenseas.com

And now for my 2 shillings worth on costuming Nazis... I always make it clear to people who become involved with Tales of the Seven Seas that we welcome both historically accurate pirates as well as "storybook" pirates, as the costuming is often easier to recognize. We don't portray a single era in history either. We like to keep it fun, pleasant and easy going.

Why? Because I don't need our pirates to please other reenactors. I need our pirates to have a look that will sparkle the eyes of little kids and give them something that was so exciting, that they will remember it when they are old. And I need them to put a smile on the face of everyone we meet, whether they are 9 or 90. That takes having costuming that makes us instantly recognizable as pirates.

The second reason is that I have seen costuming Nazis be cruel and hurtful for the sake of historical accuracy which may or may not be correct. I've also seen them arrogantly spouting misinformation about piracy, because they didn't cover a broad enough spectrum in their studies to realize that pirates DID dress much like the fictional Captain Hook when they went ashore to emulate the clothing of wealthy merchants. (Info from Dr David Cordingly) And that some of them dressed flamboyantly when going into battle as well (exa: historic documentation on the dress of Bartholomew Roberts and Edward Teach aka Blackbeard) and that there are many options to choose from when portraying piracy.

The third reason is that I do not believe that women should be limited to sitting on their butts in an encampment, cooking and cleaning or at the very best, prostituting, while the guys are out having all the fun with and pleasing the crowd, blasting each other. We girls like gunpowder too!!! Arrrrrrrr!!! Enough women pirated, aided pirates and led fleets of pirates that although there were not many of them, we like to portray them in a variety of ways, either as wenches or dressed in male pirate clothing and we never limit them to mundane roles- crowds love a feisty wench with a ready sword and a smoking flintlock!

There! My two shillings worth!!

*jumps down off of her soapbox and looks for something to blast the hell out of now that she is good and riled up!!*

[crow]

Greetins there Baptiste

Yer view of history is a fair one an I salute anyone who tries to lean from the past , that goes double fer them what learns it by livin the past . By the way there aint no history in a plastic boat an I lay to it that a ship built of wood blood an sweat is the only ones thats has got a real soul. She'll teach ye all ye needs to know about the sea .

[Rosalinda]

Well said, Quill!

[captweaver65]

hello and welcome Baptiste,

I do have a great amount of respect and admiration for your views and understand your point of view.

there are many people though,who are unable to take the amount of time neccessary to make their costumes perfectly authentic and not enough money to buy such.

most of us just want to have a good time,whatever that entails and if fudging a little on costuming is the outcome,then I say live life as you want it.

in the sca here in An Tir,there are people with varying degrees of authentic costuming and we often segregate ourselves because of it.the encampments I have been to have a central area where only those with period tents can camp and all others camp out from them.this gives our two sides satisfaction in our fun play time,whatever level it is taken to.

if people are part of a true teaching group,showing others what life was like,then they should all be extremely authentic in their costuming and practises.

respectfully,

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

I must also add that the Royaliste's captain has shown infinite patience with us as we've struggled, quite literally, to "learn the ropes".

The first time he shouted "fend off!!" I blinked at him like a blonde deer in the headlights until someone translated it to "stick your legs over the side and push off the logs of the sea wall!"

Just absorbing the terminology of a historic vessel is a task and it's been a pleasure to sail under a captain so willing to share his knowledge and experience and at the same time be patient, fun and good-hearted.

...Especially when we flopped about his deck uselessly, like fish out of water. But he is a captain who can recognize the fish that want to learn. So a hearty toast to the Captain!

[Red Maria]

Greetings Mates,

<snipe>

I NOW ASK YOU, WHICH VESSEL WOULD YOU SAIL ON?

Your answer is the Royaliste!  Why? Because of the hard work and research that her master has given her!  Out of respect for this and other grand vessels, should we not put the same effort in our clothing? In our weapons? In our research?

Please share your thoughts with this humble mariner.

Baptiste

I eat Authenticity Nazis for breakfast! They're especially good with a litte honey. I am on a piracy list that is an academic one with historians (noted ones at that), archeaologists, and writers of martime fact and fiction. There are also re-enactors on the list. If you don't cross your t's or dot your eyes and have adequete citations for what you put on there, they'll eat you alive! I know I have seen the occasional feeding frenzy. I remain respected on this list because I do my research. I am fortunate enough to work at a private resaerch library with a fairly good selection of materials on piracy and a very good selection of maritime materials, as well as a head of the reseach division who is considered to be an expert on piracy and has written a book or two on the subject. If I don't something know or need someone to consult on something with, I ask him. If I have questions on the Barbary Coast I asked someone I know on that list who is the head of the Middle Eastern Studies Dept. at the Univserity of New South Wales, Australia. Many of us strive to be authentic but as someone else says lacks the resources. Also many of the groups here are set up with entertainment (themselves and others) in mind as well as presenting a historically accurate picture of pirates. There are some things that are historically accurate you wouldn't want to play. Lettting you teeth rot and develpoing scurvy are two that come to mine.

You made a list of things such as cutlasses etc. Is there anything in particular that is your peccadillo?

Any hooo welcome aboard mate!

[baptiste]

Marie Rouge

Have you taken offense from my learned discourse? Peccadillo? Did I speak of peccadillos? My stated question was, should we as pyrate reenactors not put forth the same effort as the ship owners?

I do not count threads. My buttonholes are hand done because I do not know how to use a sewing machine. My female friends wear the kit of male sailors!

Pyrate reenacting gives us the opportunity to learn! I hand sewed my sea bag because I wanted to learn a mariner skill! I row a wooden long boat for the same reason. So much of marlinspike seamanship could be learned from web sites! Midwestern pyrates could become quit skilled!

[Rosalinda]

Speaking merely as an unfortunate outsider, isn't it a better thing to appreciate something completely, even though you are unable to emulate it to perfection, rather than having only a vague appreciation and complete authenticity and accuracy? Having enough gold to buy a kingdom does not necessarily make one a true king.

But I do agree that knowing the skills, doing the work, experiencing as much as one can... is a better way.

Did that make sense?

[Red Maria]

Marie Rouge

Have you taken offense from my learned discourse? Peccadillo? Did I speak of peccadillos?  My stated question was, should we as pyrate reenactors not put forth the same effort as the ship owners?

I did not take offence and I hope that you were not offended either. It just seemed that you you had specific things in mind and I wanted to what thoses were. the "Peccadillo" (as in an annyoing thing) I was refering to was at the end of your original post when you stated about clothing, cutlasses etc. I wanted to know what about the clothing in particular. Wrong fabric? Wrong style for such and such years? What about the cutlasses? Too heavy? too light? wrong style for such & such years.

I admire the fact that you hand sew your botton holes. I have a hard enough time sewing coins on my tribal dance belt. The fact that one of your female co-hort wears male attire is nothing wrong authenicity speaking. Most of Port Royal wears male attire to some degree or another. There is ample evidence that women dressed in male attire during the 16th-19th century as a way to make a living. Yes some of them were sailors and some of those sailors were pirates!

Baptiste I did not mean for you to take what I said as a denouncement of you or anything like that.

As putting in as much effort in authenticity as a ship owner like the Royaliste, many do and many don't. It depends on the indvidual and the group. I know I try! And I annoy people when they do something that's inaccurate! just ask anyone in PRP!

So is everything OK now?

[baptiste]

Marie Rouge, I have wiped the tear from my eye.

My experieince as a reenactor has involved ocean passages, snow treking and other foolish things. I use natural fabrics for they last a long time and keep ya warm. Linen keeps ya cool! Regarding the cost of fabric. I know people who used $10 worth of synthetic fabric and $150 in triming. Why not make a common garmet out of wool for $30 instead.

I have ranted too much!

[the Royaliste]

:) Interesting thoughts, mates....All well taken in thought and deed. But, an arse is an arse, whether he dresses proper, or not....So, line them 'Nazis' up...I hate Natzies! Loading Starboard batteries........ Also, out of character, thank you all for your continued support and love of the Tallship Royaliste,'tis afterall, your Ship...Gary

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Baptiste m'dear,

I did not mean to unleash a tirade of anti-authenticity on you- please bear with us here...

Historic pirates were black sheep in their own time, and those of us who choose to portray piracy seem to be destined to follow the same path as those we portray, when it comes to circles of reenactors.

In general, reenactors of other genres are very harsh on people who portray pirates, unless it jives with their particular era and their particular expertise. Even then, we are tolerated at best. They don't seem to grasp that piracy dates back to the earliest days of record and if we wanted to... we could be ROMAN pirates in bloody togas if it damn well pleased us, fer criminey sakes!

I'm beginning to realize that a lot of us here besides myself, have taken some hard knocks from Nazis. An authenticity Nazi doesn't care who he hurts. All he/she cares about is that the rest of the world adapts to their version of history.

Since truly accurate pirate reenactments would likely involve promoting and glorifying terrorism, murder and torture, I think it is important to remember that in addition to overlooking things like that and having tarred hair and not bathing for months, not to mention lighting people on fire, (I save that for when I give adult pirate history talks!) that we are portraying piracy from a modern perspective- one that is a few generations removed from reality. Our ancestors would likely have been no more receptive to pirate reenactors than we would be to terrorist reenactors.

Pirates have been reshaped from terrorists of the high seas- to colorful and flamboyant rogues by popular culture. We allow ourselves a certain level of creative freedom with our characters because the real pirates weren't fun and they weren't entertaining. We can see terrorists on CNN any time. What people want to see is some version of reality, not the real thing. Most of us do study our pirate history quite thoroughly and it is as much a mix of contradictions, fables and facts now as it was then.

I hope this has helped to explain why we're a little touchy when it comes to Nazism. Because when it comes to piracy, historical accuracy just isn't gonna happen unless we take to theft and kidnapping. So speaking for myself, I have a hard time when people try to bully myself or others into adapting to a small corner of it that they understand.

As a pirate friend recently said... "Pirates put the FU back in fun!" And that's just what we do. :)

(that's your cue to grab a cutlass and join in the FUn!!!!)

[the Royaliste]

Wot she said...collapsing back on bunk....

[BatSpell]

Ahoy mates!

This is why I wanted to quit ren fair! First off, I was tired of going to fair and always having to wear a dress...secondly, Like Claire said, I was tired of sitting in the encampment while the "Men" got to go and have their fun! So finally I said hey, why don't I start a Pyrate guild (because I already had a passion for Pyrates and Pyracy! I was starting a Pyrate guild and was getting everything in the works when Low and behold! I was told by a bunch of Fair Nazies that Pyrates wern't period! "Wern't Period??!!!"...

Hell...at the least, it made me mad! I had done research well before this incident and KNEW that Pyrates were well more than period!...In fact, Pyracyis the 3rd oldest profession!!!!! Right behind Prostitution and medicine! They didn't want to hear that. And so, my Pyrate guild became no more. Before it even had the chance to get started!

I'm sorry if I sound just a little peeved, but It's just wrong what some Fair Nazies do!

Also, my two pence!

Fair winds,

Deadly Drucilla

[LadyAtropos]

The third reason is that I do not believe that women should be limited to sitting on their butts in an encampment, cooking and cleaning or at the very best, prostituting, while the guys are out having all the fun with and pleasing the crowd, blasting each other. We girls like gunpowder too!!! Arrrrrrrr!!! Enough women pirated, aided pirates and led fleets of pirates that although there were not many of them, we like to portray them in a variety of ways, either as wenches or dressed in male pirate clothing and we never limit them to mundane roles- crowds love a feisty wench with a ready sword and a smoking flintlock!

Hear! Hear! I believe that when it comes to excluding people who are perfectly willing to be historically accurate so long as they get in on the action, one can loosen up a little! I know a woman who dresses up as a Napoleonic British naval lieutenant and goes to maritime festivals, and gets saluted by other reenactors...she even asks permission to board! Her clothing is modern fabrics, but period style, and if she don't wanna trudge around in wool on a hot summer's day, I say let her do what makes her happy. The only area in which I would see the case for total and indisputable historical accuracy in costumes is when teaching folks about the clothing and weapons. And even then, it's nevah gonna be fully accurate 'cause they're not really from that time! Har, har.

LA

[Red Maria]

Ahoy mates!

I said hey, why don't I start a Pyrate guild (because I already had a passion for Pyrates and Pyracy! I was starting a Pyrate guild and was getting everything in the works when Low and behold! I was told by a bunch of Fair Nazies that Pyrates wern't period! "Wern't Period??!!!"...

Hell...at the least, it made me mad! I had done research well before this incident and KNEW that Pyrates were well more than period!...I

I'm sorry if I sound just a little peeved, but It's just wrong what some Fair Nazies do!

Also, my two pence!

Fair winds,

Deadly Drucilla

         

If it was SoCal or Northern Faire it more of a matter of politics and bad memories. There used to be a group called Sea Dogs (St. Dymphna) at faire (I was one of them) who portrayed period privateers, seamen, pirates etc. They sang, did sword fights and various bits (you should have seen the guys when they did Capt. Ned and his crew from the goodship Raging Queen!) Anyway beings the pirates they were they did raise a bit of mayhem now & then. I guess there was some incident (I still haven't heard what, it was after I left) & were banned from Faire. Since then pirates have not been *period* at the REC Northern & Southern Ren. Faires.

BTW I used to run a sub-guild at SoCal Faire (in Agoura) called St. Magadelene's. It was the whore's guild who operated out of a house of ill-repute called Cleopatra's Barge. I did extensive research on period harlotry (university libraries etc.) right down to the colors of their clothers, make up etc. Made the costume (bright primary colors red, blue, yellow) presented it and my research and was told my research was unacceptable and I had to tone down my costume with tea. St. Magdalene's was not allowed back next year after we were told that prostitutes weren't period!

I worked at a booth last Southern Faire and as I was wandering about... low and behold there were a gang of women dressed as period prostitutes! One woman was dressed in a costume that very much like the one I had and it wasn't toned down with tea this time!

I guess REC doesn't have a problem with prostitutes being *period*

As I said, it's politics.

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

*sob!*

*choke!*

*snivel-snivel-sniff-sniff!*

*sob!*

That be one o' the saddest tales o' fun sabotage I ever heard of! That is terrible!! But you know it's never too late to start a pirate guild. If you're serious about putting one together let me know, I am guessing that some of our people who are out your way would love to have another guild to go to events that are closer to home.

And I can tell you one thing... you DON'T need ren faires to run a pirate guild! We do just wonderfully participating in parades, festivals and other types of events.

I actally had a guy come up to me at a California Independent Renaissance Guild Association seminar as I was packing up at the end of the weekend. He looked down his nose at me and said:

"You know... if YOUR guys had ever really met MY guys, My guys would have cut YOUR guy's heads off on the spot. So how can your people and my people POSSIBLY attend the same events?"

I loosely translated that to mean "Leave we don't want you here" so I did leave, and with no regrets, because that's not the kind of people I wanted to be around.

If nothing else, the experience made me determined that Tales of the Seven Seas would not be pushed to choose an era, to adopt rigid costuming requirements and that we'd keep it fun.

No regrets and nothin' but fun and good times on the horizon!! ARRRRRRR!!!

[BatSpell]

Ahoy Red Maria!

Me mate, Jim be a member of St. Magadelene's he's been to two fairs with em so far. We live in the Merced area, but lived in the fresno area when he joined.

Fair Winds,

Deadly Drucilla

[Red Maria]

Ahoy Red Maria!

Me mate, Jim be a member of St. Magadelene's he's been to two fairs with em so far. We live in the Merced area, but lived in the fresno area when he joined.

Fair Winds,

Deadly Drucilla

It's nice to see a grand tradition reborn! Here's to members of St. Magdalene's past & present!

[the Royaliste]

Alla this stuff makes me nostrils wide! I have no renfaire experience,never felt the need(me masts get nervous that close to live trees), but ....prostitutes not period???..RR, peel the friggin' planks off me topsides,will ye!! Wot do they think keeps us Seadogs sailin? Seems the last scallywags wot resembled Nazis on my dock dropped the authenticity angle when I told 'em to grab me sweeps(20 feet long), and row this 30 ton Pyrate Queen outta the harbor! So, line 'em up along the period coastline, and the shelling will commence authentically, with live rounds. We're missin' something here,mates...WE are the pirates,we know it and they know it. We need to unite under one Jolly Roger in this respect...Why, they don't even have ships, if they do, tell me, and it's all over but the smoke clearing....Start a 'vounteer guild', like the crew of the Lady Washington,'volunteer', only ye can't even make application unless you're a pyrate...just a thought, I'll go back to cleanin' the deck guns.........

[the Royaliste]

BIG LITE BULB goes off in 'aft cabin'...Ahh, I see, now I know why they don't have 'em near water....in artillery range of the Royaliste!!

[baptiste]

I hear rants! Let me hear some more coments from my first post!