Costumers! Need Period Panniers advice

[AkashaZuul]

So here's a costuming noodle twister.

I've decide to make a saque-back gown (Robe a la Francaise) for Halloween. I've chosen approximately 1755 as my target date for style, but I'm having a problem choosing appropriately-shaped gown supports. None of the books I've been looking through are consistent on what was really used mid-century. Some folks say wide panniers. Some folks say those were passé, and were on to pocket hoops. I'm still woefully confused as to what the best choice is, and would love to hear people's opinions.

My choices so far are:

-Full panniers. This sort of scares me because they're always too wide, and hard to maneuver around. I really don't like them when they are square, either, like an upside down U. I'm also going to need to get into a car at some point when fully dressed, you know? They're also a pain to make from scratch, and I'm short on time.

-Side hoops, aka pocket hoops. This sounds like a great idea, but from what I've read recently, they have a tendency to be droopy and unstable with heavier fabrics. Also, if I decorate the front of the dress heavily, they won't keep the fabric from sliding forward and dragging on the ground in front.

-Round hoops. Round hoops, you say? Apparently those were worn too at some point in the century, just like the round hoops from the mid 1800's, but smaller. Hooped petticoat, actually. Sort of like a less squished pannier.

If you can think of anything I missed, or help enlighten me as to what would look best under a red moiré taffeta saque dress, I'd appreciate it.

My most recent idea was to take a pre-made 1850's hoop skirt and somehow squish it and alter it to make it more period. It's cheating, but it might work.

??????????????

Thanks for your brainstorms.

[Bloody_Mary_Bonney]

honestly the fact that you mentioned a car this means its going to get really tricky and honestly i dont really know that much about wemon fashion seeing as i'm just your local wench when i dress and now more over i'm more dressed for a fantasy world.... but to try and answer your question it sounds like Side hoops would work best and if its just for halloween remeber kiss (keep it simple sweetheart)

[blackjohn]

I wish I could give you an answer, but I don't know enough about women's clothing and all my books 20 miles away...

I betcha Kass would know!!!

Kass, where are you???

[kass]

AkashaZuul,

Forgive me! I've been woefully busy and haven't been by the Pub. Blackjohn just shook my tree and woke me up to the fact that you might need my help. I hope it's not too late.

I would suggest going for the pocket panniers. They are dead easy to make and they will hold more weight than you imagine. At the top of this page My Webpage are two pictures of me in a blue polonaise gown and matching petticote. I'm wearing pocket panniers under this. They are made from 5oz natural linen with 1" twill tape for the boning channels. They are boned with 1/2" flat or half-round basket reed (you can get some here: http://www.grannd.com/corsetsupply.shtml#reeds )

They are very light and yet they hold up this heavy brocade quite well as you can see from the pictures.

If it's not too late, email me privately and I'll scan you the pattern for them. They're really easy to make and could easily be done in an hour and a half, I'm sure. Just make sure you hem the petticote over the panniers or else the petticote will sag in the center when you wear it.

Kass

[AkashaZuul]

You look so cute in that white wig! Not a bad idea for Halloween, either. I didn't even think about wigs. . .

Nope, it's never too late for helpful advice. Well that, and I haven't actually started cutting fabric yet since this project isn't "due" until the end of October. Still working on making style choices and what not.

I'm still torn between using panniers (because they'd look cool) or using pocket hoops (because they're easy). I got brave and bought a pre-made hoop skirt that has exactly the right shape of panniers when you squish it in the center. All it needs is the tiniest bit of adjustment at the top to make it have the right shape, and voila! They're particularly nice because they have real hoop steel in them and can be bent a bit, but still collapse easy for movement. We'll see if that applies when I wear them in the car. I'm just happy I won't have to add the additional pain in the **** of making them from scratch. Thank you, Lacis!

I am still a bit concerned about fitting the petticoat over the panniers because of center sag. I was going to get my dress form out and use it with the panniers attached to fit the dress, but I'm not really sure how the pleating should change (if at all) since it's not a terribly big pannier. More research in books required. I've most blissfully recruited another pair of costuming-trained hands to help me on the fitting on this project, so at least I have someone to double-check my measurements and fit. Yay! I'm still waiting for Santa to get back to me on those "eyes on stalks" and "third pair of hands" I asked for.

My current pair of pocket hoops are nice, but they sag a bit when you put heavy things on them or in them. They look awful when your hips look like they're 10 inches below your waist. I am going to make the next pair a bit different, with heavier fabric and boning, and hopefully they won't sag. I used the pattern from Jean Hunnisett's book for them.

Here's another question for you, Kass. Do you prefer a bumroll or pocket hoops with your polonaise gowns? I like the bumroll look, but I made one and it came out too big and oooh hahahah hee hee hoo bahahahah I hope my butt never gets that huge and lumpy for real.

So I plan on posting photos as the project progresses.

[kass]

I always say that if the costume doesn't include your head, the whole thing looks wrong. I have short hair and I've become a real master at using fake hair pieces and hats to make my hair look "period".

Ah yes... The end of October. I've entirely lost my brain and thought we were talkin about the end of this month. Sheesh!

Ovoid hoop petticotes were worn in this period. I think there's an extant one in Corsets and Crinolines or Cut of Women's Clothes or something. They're just like a modern or Civil War hoop skirt except squashed in the middle as you describe. So if the one you got works: HUZZAH! Less work for you!

Don't stress out over fitting the petticote over the panniers/hoop petticote. Put the panniers on your dress form and use it to make the adjustments to the hem. The pleating shouldn't change if it's a small pannier. I'm making a really wide pannier for the Ball on October 9th and that will need to have pleats that make the side pieces look like rounded corners. But with the dress you're making, it doesn't sound that severe. Just put the panniers on the dress form and make sure the hem of your petticote is even all the way around. It should dip down more at the sides to accommodate the panniers, but when you have the panniers on with it, the hem should appear even all around. It doesn't take any special adjustments at all.

I've never seen the pattern in Hunnisett's book, but do you have Waugh's "Corsets and Crinolines" by any chance? That's the pattern I used for my pocked hoops. It worked perfectly for me in that picture you saw.

I either wear pocket hoops or nothing under my polonaise gowns. To be blunt, I have an ample posterior and never felt a need for a bum roll. In fact one of the ladies at the house where I volunteer once asked me how to make "one of your bum rolls". When I told her I never wore them, she was really embarassed. I wasn't. We are what we are. And it's nice to think that my shape was so in fashion in the 18th century that women made accessories to make up for the fact that they didn't have bums like mine.

But all joking aside, bumrolls in the 18th century were subtle things and not everyone needed them. It's certainly not like the 17th and 19th centuries where bum rolls and bustles were so big, the women looked like a centaur or at least that she had someone hiding under the back of her dress. I would only use a bumroll if my polonaise didn't pouf out properly in the back when worn. Your butt should not look flat in a polonaise. But neither should it look like it's sticking out (this is something the Kyoto Costume Museum got wrong in their book "Revolution of Fashion" -- too much butt on the mannequins!).

My advice is to put on your polonaise over your petticotes and look at your backside in a mirror. Sometimes just adding another under-petticote will do the trick.

Kass

[AkashaZuul]

But I want my butt to be

<------------------------THIS BIG!!!------------------------------>

Like this:

Actually, I think this dress is in fact a 1780's saque gown with the sides pulled up, no? I have photos in a couple of books showing the train being pulled up through the pocket holes. I'm still trying to figure out how to do it, and if it looks stupid or not. : )

I'm crazy about this dress, and just won the fabric on eBay to make it!

[blackjohn]

Stupid?!?! Heck no!!!

That's a fantastic look!

And in this pirate's book its one of the few things that can give the Gibson Girl look a run for its money.

[Paisley]

AkashaZuul Posted on Sep 21 2004, 02:51 PM

  But I want my butt to be

<------------------------THIS BIG!!!------------------------------> 

i'd GLADLY let you borrow my bustle to get your butt "this big", but i'm afraid mines permantely attached.

i put j lo to shame

[Bloody_Mary_Bonney]

Well i'm glad ye found some help there lass and good luck on extending your posterier

[kass]

How go the panniers, Jennifer?

I thought I'd swing by and see if you posted any progress.

My husband is working on a set of really wide panniers for me that I'm going to wear to the Colonial Ball on the 9th. Wish our architectural skills luck!

I'll probably post a webpage about it when I'm done.

Kass