Justaucorps buttons 1690-1725

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I am trying to find some good photos of extant clothing for the 1690-1720 ( Actually, closer to 1720) with good shots of the buttons. I would settle for paintings etc.

Most of my books don't have good photos of Gentleman's clothing in this period....

I know that later in the century the buttons were buttons that were moulds covered in fabric with designs embroidered into them

but the earlier ones seem to be a wooden mould wrappedwit thread and have designs woven into that....

What do you guys think?

[blackjohn]

I'm going to have to think about this one... I must have something around here somewhere that can answer that question...

I'll check later, as right now I'm gathering my kit together for the Brethren's First Annual Sword Fight and Photo Shoot.

Wish you could be here! Maybe next year...

Blackjohn

[Slopmaker Cripps]

Well, I have all kinds of original period artwork in my collection here on the computer......

But I can tell you this, from all the original artwork I have seen and everything, sailors most commonly used brass buttons on their jackets. I also have accounts of other things being used, but they were on a guys jacket returning from a long trip to the east indies and had to replace buttons along the way. They were also later accounts from the 1780's-90's. So, your best bet would be to stick with the brass buttons. And as for a justacorps, why are you going with that? sailors rarely wore them, except for some officers, and even then they weren't the really fancy stuff you see people wearing at events. And besides, not everyone can be an officer as there would be no crew to command.

Cheers,

Adam C.

Slopmaker & Ordinary Seamen

[Lady Seahawke]

Buttons of the time were made with whatever they had at hand.

Brass, silver, bronze, bone, horn, wood...etc.

here are some sites for you to take a look at ...some have pics...others have descriptions...hope it helps.

http://www.milwarehouse.com/18thcenturybuttons.htm

http://www.countrylife.co.uk/about/features/feat73.php

http://www.englishcountrydancing.org/sources.html

http://www.jarnaginco.com/18thCentury%20buttons.htm

http://home.planet.nl/~tolsm031/Engels/ind...dexengels_B.htm

[Slopmaker Cripps]

Yes, they did use whatever was at hand....but brass was less susceptible to salt water corrosion.....which explains why they are seen more often on sailors clothing..........

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I understand about using common (or even common sense) materials for sailors/seamans jackets 1690 pattern or whatever.

However, my question was if anyone had any information on buttons for a Gentleman's Coat/Justaucorps.

I doubt that a Gentleman that could afford a silk coat in the early 18th (1700-1720) Century would put bone, metal or wood buttons on such a thing.

The example I sited above is from Historical Fashion in Detail, but it is of a 1730-50 coat.

The buttons on pre-1690 Justaucorps coats that I have seen are the really rounded type.

Once again the 1690-1720 period has fallen into the black hole.

Any help?

[blackjohn]

And as for a justacorps, why are you going with that? sailors rarely wore them, except for some officers, and even then they weren't the really fancy stuff you see people wearing at events. And besides, not everyone can be an officer as there would be no crew to command.

Pardon me for the intrusion, but my guess would be that our Gentleman here would like to play the part of a crew member on a successful pirate excursion. If Captain Johnson's book is accurate, and I have no cause to believe it isn't, one of those things often plundered was nice clothing.

As for the issues of command... isn't everyone being an "officer," or maybe I should say equals, what piracy is all about (well, after the plundering, pillaging, etc.).

Blackjohn

[blackjohn]

According to my sources, on the Whydah were found 35 silver buttons. Unfortunately, I don't have specs on them, nor do I know if they were all one type, or a mix. Fwiw, they also found 14 brass cuff links, 4 brass clothes hooks, and 73 silver buckles. I believe those buckles were of the knee breeches variety.

I could perform the rituals to call forth one of the great Old Ones from his ancient slumber. I might lose my last vestiages of sanity, but we might learn a thing or two.

Blackjohn

[Lady Seahawke]

that is why I placed the links on earlier...it mentioned silver for the period you asked for. And Silver was for the more affluent attire.

[hitman]

Aint entirley sure this'll help but.....

http://www.bonaventure.org.uk/

I found this site a while back as one of the groups members posted here frequently at the time. Unfortunatly I haven't seen him as of late or I would point you to him ( His name is Foxey). The gallery of the sight has several photos and the group he belongs to is to my understanding fairly stringent about documentation so between these pics and contacting them I hope you get what you need. I know the period is on the outside edge of correct and the pics of buttons ain't to good but.........

[MadMike]

G.O.F,

Check out this link-

http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/despo...e-francois.html

then scroll down until you see the link for "Joconde Database of French Museum Collections"

There is an interesting picture dating from 1699 by Francois Desportes entitled "Portrait de l'artiste en chasseur".

I right clicked and saved, showing a good closeup of the coat buttons (clothed covered on the justacorps, the small brass or gold colored buttons may have a design- hard to tell).

There are several interesting pictures in "The Costumer's Manifesto" website here-

http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/leloirX3.htm

go to "Color and Tinted plates 1 &2" at the bottom of the page for some pictures (click the high res versions).

Yours, &c.

Mike

[kass]

Dear Gentleman,

I've recently been reading a book called "1700: Scenes from London Life" by Maureen Walker and came across a quote pertinent to your search. It is from a letter from Lady Fermanagh to one of the Verneys of Claydon in Buckinghamshire. I quote it in full below:

"Deare Mr. Verney, - I have spoke to Mr. Bedford and he tells me that nobody has such a thing s silk buttons to a silk wascoate, and that if you have it done with silver it will be very handsome, and my lord thinks so too. You have sent up one half of your briches and I must have the other half of them sent up, for one briches is too long and we want that which is too much for the briches to make the wascoate compleat, and can't doe without it, so pray don't fail to send it up by John Innes the carryer next week. Mr. Bedford says he will pass his word they shall fitt you and it will come to ten shillings more than silk buttons, and your father bids me weight you word that silk will look very ugly, I will rake care to doe everything for the best when I know your mind."

Which is unfortunate because I made silk buttons for my waistcoat But apparently silver was the preferred thing and silk had gone out of fashion enough that Lady Fermanagh sought to prevent Verney from making this faux pas.

I know that isn't a definitive answer and it also mentions nothing of justacorps buttons, but I thought you would find an contemporary reference useful for your search.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Very interesting and helpful.

I would be interested to know what they meant by "silk" and "silver" in that refrence.

Do they mean silk as in a piece of material (like covering the mould with cloth as is evident in later (1740+) waistcoats and Justaucoprs, or any kind of silk, such as silk thread "wound" around the mould.

Alot of the "earlier" buttons seem to be silk thread would around a mould that also contains silver and gold foil pressed into depressions in the mould.

again here is a sleeveless waistcoat that is purportedly 1700

does that look like silver, thread, silk???

Keep posting anything you find!

Thanks

[kass]

Yeah, one wonders. Most of the early 17th century jackets I've studied have passementerie buttons -- that is buttons with silk floss or braid knotted or wrapped around them. In the 18th century I know we start getting fabric covered buttons. But you're right: it's kinda obscure whether Lady Fermanagh is talking about silk thread covered buttons or silk fabric covered buttons.

Wow! That sleeveless waistcoat DEFINITELY looks like it was made that way to conserve fine fabric. And it's so short. If it weren't for the buttons going all the way to the bottom and the straight fronts, I would have taken it for a mid-18thc waistcoat.

Is that pic from Kohler by any chance? It has that look about it.

[JoshuaRed]

Slopmaker Cripps, I dig yer sig, man. Right on!

Were Pyle & Wyeth so far off in their research/props? If only they'd realized just how much impact their work would have on the impending Hollywood Machine....

I'm really impressed with the specific knowledge you all have!

[Slopmaker Cripps]

JoshuaRed,

Thanks man. I sent you my reply in a private message due to not wanting to start anything on this forum (again). I'm not into bickering and fighting anymore. Leading by Example is a better way.

Cheers,

Adam C.

Slopmaker

Fish-Broth Society