Safflower Frockcoat

[kass]

Someone (I think Siren or Akasha) was curious about the Safflower Frock Coat I was making. I just discovered that I had a load of pictures I never put up. They're not of the finished product yet, but of the dyeing process (i.e. how the safflower frock coat came to be coloured safflower). So if you're interested, here's the page:

A Late 18thc Frock Coat Dyed with Safflower

Can you believe that I have a man who not only would wear this colour, but actually bragged to his friends about it! Married the right chap, I did...

I'll be doing more work on it for the Colonial Ball in early October, so I will post pictures of the finished garment then.

Enjoy! And let me know what you think!

Kass

[Black Syren]

Oh it was me..i love it..i love the color..I want one in that color..ROFL

[kass]

I just can't wait to show you the pictures of me lad in the finished goods, Siren.

[AkashaZuul]

That's really cool stuff. I went oooh at the "pound of saffron", though. Orange gold, it is. : )

Can't wait to see it finished.

[kass]

Plunder yourself a Spanish ship, Akasha, and there be saffron for all of us!

I used that pound of saffron for this experiment:

Dyeing with Real Saffron

I mean, look at how orange it is in the pot! But once you wash the garment, it's yellow. Very very bright yellow, but there is no way to get the orangey-ness to stay.

Oh goodness! I just realized that it was an ounce, not a pound! Now wonder I was able to afford it!

[blackjohn]

Wow Kass, that's quite amazing...

Don't let the alesmith drink any red wine while he's wearing it.

Blackjohn

[maudelynn]

That is a stunning colour! I have only done a tiny bit of dying and really need to have an industrial sink put in somewhere lest I make a mess of my house. ( my cat and 2 dogs already make enough of a mess)

I tried to get one of my Fancy Ball dresses I made up as a personal picture but to no avail. At the moment I am redoing the black and white striped late 1700s Sleepy Hollow dress. Then I am starting my Gold Elizabeth Swann dress! I am so glad to run across your pictures! They inspire me to keep stitching away !

Warmest Respects and a sterling thimble to you

[AkashaZuul]

Ahh! The Sleepy Hollow Gown! I just got my striped fabric and figured out a pattern for that. . . . I can't wait to make it! I cannot decide if I'll have time to finish it and my saque gown before Halloween, but we'll see. Still have to figure out my boy's clothes too! Good luck sewing that dress. Please please please post photos!

Kass, that saffron color is fantastic. Yeah sheesh a pound. Can you imagine how much a pound of that would cost? And to use for *dyeing*? Hahaha. I use it when I cook basmati rice, by the way. : )

I wonder what you could add in there to put in some orange color. . . natural, of course. Procion dyes work great, but aren't even close to period *or* natural.

[maudelynn]

I shall post, if I can figure out how! I can be very inCOMPetant at times. The stripes are horrid to try to line up and I paid so much for the fabric because it is the same silk/satin gros grain type fabric used in the film. I ended up using Period Impressions Polainnaise Gown. I thought about Wingeo's robe Le Angelaise (sp?) but I didn't see any pleats in the back of the movie gown bodice. Have you decided on a pattern yet? I am actually off in a moment to buy the ribbon trim for the dress. I have found matches here in Seattle for 2 of the 3... now for the ruched white. I may just have to make that myself out of white gros grain... my fingers ache just thinking of it !!!

Good luck on yours and let me know how it is going along

[Gentleman of Fortune]

Looks like you are doing a great job!

Historical Fashion in Detail says that the one you are modeling it after (at least the color) is salmon pink ribbed silk.

Do you think they mean Faile, Moire', Grosgrain?

What are you using to make your frock?

What kind of trim are you thinking about?

Love to see more of it when done!

[AkashaZuul]

If you figure out what that stuff is, let me know. I haven't been able to find any ribbed silk around on eBay. I found something like it in black and white only at Thai Silks, and they refer to it as "Ottoman Silk". I've heard it called Faille, Bengaline, and Grossgrain silk, but it's really hard to find by any name.

I'm looking for something like the red fabric mantua with silver embroidery in Historical Fashion in Detail on page 62-63. That sort of silk ribbing.

[kass]

Blackjohn, I don't think you'd catch him dead with red wine anyway. Or at least, if I caught him with red wine, he'd be dead. Frankly, the colour is so light sensitive that I'll eventually have to redye it anyway. So if he spilled something outrageous on it, I wouldn't absolutely kill him. It'd just kill him a little...

Akasha, I LOVE that red mantua in FiD. Wouldn't I kill for that silk too. I'm sure I could add a red dye to the saffron to make it orangey. But that's so much like work...

Gentleman of Fortune, I don't know if the museum staff can classify it exactly. It's ribbed silk. I don't think it's grosgrain or moiré or faille or they would have said so. I used tussah dupioni because of the stiffness of the tussah silk. Dupioni doesn't exactly have even ribs like the original, but it does give a similar appearance. And, well, I already had it in my stash so it won.

I don't know what you mean by what am I using to make my frock. Do you mean what fabric or what pattern? If you mean pattern, I drafted this pattern myself based on one in Waugh's Cut of Men's Clothes.

Maudelynn, I don't have a picture in my head of the Sleepy Hollow gown, but I would avoid Wingeo's patterns like the plague. I haven't heard good things about them. Have you ever seen JP Ryan's patterns? Hers are really a cut above everything else I've seen on the market thusfar. Here's her site: The Recollections of J.P. Ryan

[kass]

Oh, I just wanted to add that if any of you are looking to make a robe anglais but have never draped a gown before, I have a photo essay of it online here: A Striped Gown Anglais

Cheers,

Kass

[maudelynn]

Wow Kass, would that I had found your tutorial before I began my Striped gown. My stripes match alright. I finally figured out last night why the front was not laying flat on my body to fit the stomacher. Hello breasts, so until I get myself a proper 1770's corset I am going to hold off on finishing it. I have a 1790-1800 is corset and they are not as conical and havea bit more of a natural shape so it just wasnt working. Have you been to

PeriodCorsets.com?

I don't mind Wingeo patterns so much. Although I prefer Period Impressions Polannaise to all others and that is what I am using for my Sleepy gown.

Thank you for the insight and I will refer back to your tutorial when I begin my Miss Swann peach dress 2.0

[AkashaZuul]

So in other words, when we get stuck, we call you?

It's funny. . . I've looked at your site so many times before, and always thought "what great work here". It's really great to see things being put together as they go. Much easier to learn how to do it yourself that way.

[maudelynn]

Ohhhh and you have a riding habit page. I am just about to start on mine. I am using the Mill Farm pattern that looks just like the one in Janet Arnolds book. I know I could save myself alot of money if I just knew how to draft them fromt the books... ahhh well something to learn I suppose.

What are your favorite fabric suppliers?

Thank you

[AkashaZuul]

So I'm going to be annoying and post my favorite corset maker's link again.

http://www.thestaymaker.com

Kass: I think my two favorite bits in that book are the 1740's court mantua on page 155 (I have the full photo of the dress in another book), and the italian cloak 1610 on page 169. Swoon!

Well, that, the red/silver mantua, the yellow polonaise gown, and the embroidered cockatrice in red on page 151.

And there we have my sewing projects for the next 72.3 years.

[kass]

Wow Kass, would that I had found your tutorial before I began my Striped gown. My stripes match alright. I finally figured out last night why the front was not laying flat on my body to fit the stomacher. Hello breasts, so until I get myself a proper 1770's corset I am going to hold off on finishing it. I have a 1790-1800 is corset and they are not as conical and havea bit more of a natural shape so it just wasnt working.

Yup. Gotta have the right underwear.

I'm actually doing a stays workshop tomorrow at our local living history house and a gown draping workshop in September. Too bad you ladies aren't local. The 1753 Bachmann House

Have you been to PeriodCorsets.com?

Yes. Great site.

I don't mind Wingeo  patterns so much. Although I prefer Period Impressions Polannaise to all others and that is what I am using for my Sleepy gown.

I can't say I care for Period Impressions at all. Too costumey for me. And I really do draw the line (forgive the pun) at pattern makers who handwrite their patterns. Sorry. Professionally made patterns shouldn't look like you made them on your kitchen table with a ballpoint pen.

Thank you for the insight and I will refer back to your tutorial when I begin my Miss Swann peach dress 2.0

Sure! Use it as you will.

So in other words, when we get stuck, we call you?   

Or at least email me.

It's funny. . . I've looked at your site so many times before, and always thought "what great work here". It's really great to see things being put together as they go. Much easier to learn how to do it yourself that way.

I started doing things that way because I had a friend online who I would share projects with. She'd take pictures of her projects and show me and I'd take pictures of my projects and show her. It was a great way for us to keep each other motivated long distance. And then one day someone asked me a question that could be answered by the pictures I took to share with my online friend. So I put them all up on a webpage and put text to describe what was going on in each picture, etc.

It's less a tutorial and more just a photo essay of the process. But if you have some knowledge of clothing making, it's pretty easy to figure out what to do next.

I like helping people make something really cool. And I also like showing off my work. So the photo essays serve two purposes. :)

Maudelynn, I drafted my riding habit based on the one in Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1. I'm sure it won't come as a surprise when I say I don't care for Rocking Horse Farm's patterns. But as you probably have noticed, I'm REALLY picky about patterns. Plus I love to draft my own so I rarely use anyone else's anymore. :)

My favourite fabric suppliers are fabrics-store.com (who I ocassionally write for) and Thai Silks.

Akasha, my friend (who I call my "book pusher") showed me Fashion in Detail about four years ago and I've had a sewing projects list a mile long ever since. When I got the book, I didn't even do 18th century!

I don't have it nearby, but my favourite is the white-on-white embroidered linen doublet from the 1640s. Here's a "dream page" on it:

White-on-white Linen Doublet I hope to make it this year's winter project.

By the way, here's last year's winter (and early spring) project, also from the infamous Fashion in Detail: Drawnwork Lady's Bodice It still needs more spangles, but I have to convince my husband to pound more silver wire for me.

Today I should be working on a new 1880s corset (eggplant duchesse satin with yellow silk thread embroidery) but it's too damned hot to sit at the machine.

[maudelynn]

I can't say I care for Period Impressions at all. Too costumey for me. And I really do draw the line (forgive the pun) at pattern makers who handwrite their patterns. Sorry. Professionally made patterns shouldn't look like you made them on your kitchen table with a ballpoint pen.

Which patterns do you suggest? I have gotten most of the advice from a fellow sewer and GBACG.org great pattern review. I am always excited for new ideas and advice

Much Obliged

[maudelynn]

Oh and yes I understand about Rocking Horse Farm. They are trying to redo their patterns a bit better but there are still some muck ups. I have just started using Mill Farm and they seem quiet good so far, (keeping my thimbles crossed).

[AkashaZuul]

Ooooh. Aaah. Woooooow. *drool*

That's about as erudite as I'm going to get. FABULOUS work!

I can't wait to see that whitework doublet.

So I finally went out gothing again last week after several months of not doing any social events besides pirating, and it was *great* to be able to wear all my fancy corset stuff again! Makes me want to pull out my supplies and quickly whip up a bunch of silk brocade underbust and waist-cincher corsets to add to my collection. Gosh, after working on 1700's stuff for the last 5 months, it almost seems easy!

Purple and yellow sounds drool-icious. I think I have remnants of the duchesse from Thai Silks in oxblood and eggplant that would be just enough for waist-cinchers.

So I have to admit that I'm really posting so much about all of this because I haven't been able to sew for weeks due to my elbow tendonitis. Can we say withdrawal?

[kass]

Hi Maudelynn. Try J.P. Ryan. I think she only sells direct from her site (which I put somewhere else in this thread). Her patterns are really well-researched and well-made.

Mill Farm is good, but they're old. What I mean to say is that the woman who made the patterns sold the company to someone else who I don't think is updating them. I just know how far the study of Colonial clothing has come in the past 5-10 years that I would worry they were out of date. Of course, I can't say for sure that they are. And they certainly were state of the art when they came out.

Oh Akasha, I've never gone Gothing. It sounds like so much fun!

I'm so sorry about your elbows. Did I tell you I get bursitis in mine? Sewing doesn't hurt them but most other things do. So I have total empathy for you.

Take your time and get well, and when you do, we're going to see some spectacular stuff coming from you, I'm sure!

I can't wait to show you ladies the eggplant corset. I bet we have the same duchesse satin, Akasha! I got mine from Thai Silks on clearance about 2 years ago. If only I could motivate myself to sit at the machine today. But I have made one step forward. At least I found some snaps to close the back of my bloomers and I'm sewing them on by hand in the cool room.

[Gentleman of Fortune]

I meant to say (in the previous post) what TRIM are you using with the frock?

AkashaZuul

I found some really righteous %100 silk grosgrain in London about 5 years ago.

It was extrememly difficult to find and was quite pricey (about $50 a yard) and I needed about 6 yards for the Justoucorps... yikes!

I am still looking for some decent trim for the buttonholes and am trying to have the *right* buttons made.

Historcial Fashion in Detail is pretty sparse on its early 18th Century stuff.... at least for men. I think that there is a picture or two of a 1730 justaucorps or a waistcoat and but not much else.

When I lived in England, I was able to spend a good amount of time at both the V & A and the Bath museum of fashion but they too did not have much in the way of 1690 - 1720 men's clothes.

Egad!

[maudelynn]

I found some really righteous %100 silk grosgrain in London about 5 years ago.

It was extrememly difficult to find and was quite pricey (about $50 a yard) and I needed about 6 yards for the Justoucorps... yikes!

I am still looking for some decent trim for the buttonholes and am trying to have the *right* buttons made.

When I lived in England, I was able to spend a good amount of time at both the V & A and the Bath museum of fashion but they too did not have much in the way of 1690 - 1720 men's clothes.

Egad!

Yes I spent a little over that a yard for my Sleepy gown fabric. I was so scared when I cut it and now I am worried it is not right !

Have you tried MJTrim.com ? They have loads of things and there is also a store here called Nancy's sewing basket that I go to once a week. If you tell me what you want I can look. They have an online ordering page, I could give you the item number and you could order it yourself.

I was sad at the V&A when I discovered the textiles exhibits were closed for remodeling.

The Bath museum was amazing and I was thrilled as they had a Jane Austen in the movies exhibit when I went

[kass]

Hi Gentleman of Fortune. Now I understand you. The trim I plan on using for the safflower frock coat looks alot like the trim on the original, as pictured at the top of that page on my website. A friend actually wove the stuff years ago, never used it, found it again, thought it looked similar to the picture on my site, and sent it to me as a present. I won't have enough to do trim the entire coat like the original, but I'll be able to add some flash to the collar and cuffs I think. :angry:

I think the reason that Fashion in Detail and the V&A are so sparse in 1690s-1720s men's clothing is because not much has come down to us. If you think about it, it's quite easy to recut an early 18th century frock coat into a mid- or late-century frock coat. I don't know if this was done, of course. I know many of the women's garments we have from the late 18thc were older gowns that were recut. And it's possible this happened with the frock coats too. I mean, why waste all those lovely brocades?!

Maudelynn, my best friend was in London studing Elizabethan blackwork right around the time I was making that drawnwork jacket I talked about earlier and she was so disappointed that she didn't get to bring me back any info on the original. Luckily a friend online had some pictures she'd taken years ago and she helped me. It's tough to replicate a jacket when you've only ever seen a close-up of the drawnwork and a outline sketch of the whole thing.

I cannot BELIEVE I missed the "Dangerous Liaisons" exhibit at the Met this summer. By the time I heard about it, there were only a few days left and then we had a terror scare. :angry: