The Great Debate

[John_Young]

So help me decide this great problem... I do reinactments. I like history. I am not a history buff or historian, or whatnot. Just a regular joe who likes piracy.

Now I'm a member of a pirate crewe that does live-steel combat. And we just got invited to the Sail Jax (a piratey / tall shippy event).

(Supposedly some loser named Depp is going to be running around dressed as a pirate named Jimmy Pigeon or something)

Anyway, we get slammed with all these rules from the historical groups. *Not from the Sail Jax folks* That say... History over Hollywood. Everything nice and proper, which I usually don't mind. Really. But no coats?

I'm rambling here... must be the Tylenol PM still in my system.

The big question is... Wha do people want? History or Hollywood.

My contention is that 95% of folks that attend pirate events want to see the cliches, the "Arrrr"s, the female pirates, etc. Not see pike drill demonstrations and proper footwear.

Thoughts?

[piratelassie]

Bein' one o' the many people who first got sold on the more hollywoodish aspects o' piracy and then got curious about the history, I'd say that there's a balance in bein' reasonably true ta history, while maintainin' the glamour. And who's not ta say that some o' the more sensational aspects o' piracy weren't true. We certainly weren't around. We can't know fer certain. And the primary sources we have to go on are sketchy trial records and newspaper articles, and what some would call yellow journalism by Daniel Defoe. So yeah, There's something to be said fer historical accuracy, but if that history was indeed sensational, then I says, go with it. Plus, this sail jax thing is supposed to be fun, aye? Well have some fun then. Be as true as ye can ta history, but don't lose track of the romanticism. In this day and age, there's too little of it. No mysteries left in the world. And coats and bucket boots are fun.

Where is this sail jax event by the way? Not happenin' ta be in the New England area perchance? If so, I'd like ta check it out. Cos the town across the bay from me is hostin' a bunch o' tall ships in mid july.

[Cire]

Well, I personally prefer history, but you get the odd lubber who expects Hollywood. I would say you might go for a mix of the two... history with a slight Hollywood flair and embellishments perhaps?

[hurricane]

I know that a couple of the Pyrates of the Coast will probably be at this event and we'll be wearing coats. We don't adhere to the rules of so called historical enactment groups -- we sail our own flag and make our own mischief... just like true pirates should. If the Sail Jax folks don't have a problem with what you want to do, don't worry about it. They're the ones you're "working" for there - to make their event more colorful and interesting.

I think the real pirates of old would be rolling over in their graves with such silly rules.

As for Hollywood vs. Historic, most of the public could care less as long as there is a good show to watch. Most of the public can't tell a rapier from a cutlass much less what is perfectly period or proper. Put on a good show and they'll give you coin. Put on a proper show and they'll give you nothing, by thunder.

[Cap'n Crusty]

-- we sail our own flag and make our own mischief... just like true pirates should.

This comment alone is worth a round, if we ever meet.

Sez I, with that attitude, you're more proper than "Proper"

[Bilgemunky]

Historical accuracy is all well and good, but I prefer historical feasibility.

Did pirates wear this coat or that boot? Who can say for certain? Might they have? Well, if it's period, and something a pirate might have had the opportunity to swipe off the back of a victim, then I say go with it. Wool frock - good. Rayon and sequin dayglow green frock - bad.

It's just like walking the plank - many say pirates never did it. But we know well enough that many pirates loved to make sport of executing their victims, so why wouldn't they have come up with something as simple as plank walking? Sounds feasible to me.

So long as we're all more or less believable, and don't all look like jack-sparrow-clones (leave the eye-liner at home, lads!), then I'm happy

[Cap'n Crusty]

No Rayon and sequin dayglow green frock, or eyeliner?!

Damn yer eyes, now I'm having my very own "Wardrobe malfunction"!!!!

[Zorg]

I think me main objectiion to the pyraty coate thingie is natural selection:

Lets see, Caribbean tropics, 92 farenheit, 100% humidity, and Im wearing a long sleeve lined wool coat intended for Northern Europe?

Not bloody likely.

[John_Young]

Aye but have ye been on the same ship, at night, in a storm?

[Red Maria]

I say a wee bit of both. As far as coats go depends on the weathe if it's hot like Zorg says then no coats. If it cold then coats. You're a pirate not an idiot! :)

[Cap'n Crusty]

You're a pirate not an idiot! :)

Sez who?

[Red Maria]

You're a pirate not an idiot!  :)

Sez who?

OK maybe I'm wrong?! Is that unserwear on your head?!

[Rumba Rue]

Well if'n ye gots a fine body with nice mucles, then the hell with the coat and shirt. Give the women somethin' ta drool over.

And I must say, Zorg is right, there's no way in hell I'd be wearin' heavy duty costume stuff in heat and humidity!

The groups here in S. Calif. tend to be pretty much on both sides of the line regarding Hollyweird vs. true history. We have people in PRP who dress historically accurate as possible, and then we have some who look like they belong on top of a birthday cake (I've fallen into the cake look occassionally). The public really doesn't care, they just want to see pirates!

Rumba Rue

**No mind like another**

[Dream Wench]

It be a big Universe, Lads and lassies. If a Pirate be sincere....it be enough fer me. I wish ta have a cornucopia o' choices at me fingertips. Stereotypes be fine. A Gay Pirate be fine....and fine to be the Devotees o Authentic..down to tha last stitch...impressin' tha crowd with a quality not seen ever at Walrus Martus....yar ! Me hat's off ta Hollywood..and details...and the eyeliner wouldn't be botherin' me.personally at all..(the liner is used me Buckos..ta cut down on solar glare)..ask a desert dweller about glare then, ask yerself..."am I sincere about me Piratin' ?" One dislike o mine..be..too much o the synthetic sleeze.(it don't breathe too well)...a small artificial embellishment be fine..and we are sometimes a bit scarce in pocket dubloons...so's we not be mockin' a tad o poverty...happenin' to befall a fella'....and a rubber cutlass be fine, too fer safety's sake.....we want ta live thru a fight...so's we can hunt the Frock coats and Tri Corns o the future......

[TalesOfTheSevenSeas]

Well, if you want historical accuracy, you need to have the era and geographic location defined that you're recreating and you need to specify if you're recreating pirates while at sea or on shore. They often emulated the dress of wealthy merchants, and according to Dr. David Cordingly (Author of Under the Black Flag and other books) the "Hook Look" is suprisingly close to accurate. Pirates DID wear all the foppish stuff that we wore, but they wore it when they went ashore, not at sea.

There is an account of the clothing worn by Bartholomew Roberts in his final battle. He liked to dress for the occasion and wore a hat with a red feather, crimson waistcoat and had a diamond crucifix hanging around his neck.

I'm guessing your event coordinator wants the 17th or 18th century and is thinking British pirates, otherwise you could show up in Roman or Chinese clothing too!!

Most of the time, sailors dressed very simply and downright ratty. Check out Cindy Vallar's series of articles on what pirate life was really like:

Pirates and Privateers

[Cap'n Crusty]

Well if'n ye gots a fine body with nice mucles, then the hell with the coat and shirt. Give the women somethin' ta drool over.

pshaw!

Stop treating me like a piece O' meat!

[Cire]

But you are a piece of meat. Ye might be a bit more than that besides of course, but hey.....

[Cap'n Crusty]

But you are a piece of meat. Ye might be a bit more than that besides of course, but hey.....

Don't hate me cuz I'm beautiful......

Ain't Photoshop a wonderful thing?

[Hawkyns]

You guys might want to check out the Faire vs. Re-enactment thread from this section. change the seeting to show everything from the beginning and it's about halfway down page 3.

Me, I'm for the most accuracy I can get. There are a bunch of reasons, but boiled down it amounts to the fact that I don't do this for just a day at a faire or gathering. I need to be able to live in these clothes for a few days at a time, camping, sailing, cutting wood, fighting, running cannon or whatever. The historical clothing lets you do that, it was designed for it. The fantasy kit looks good, but is not always practical for activities more than just standing around, looking good. Unless that coat is well tailored for you, you can't fight in it. That bodice may look nice, but can you bend over and cook on an open fire?

As well as the heat involved with synthetic fabrics, they are very flammable. In a place where we are involved with campfires, gunpowder, pan flashes, and muzzle fire, I don't want to be in anything that's flammable.

There are times that I and my lady will wear fantasy pirate, but it is rare and only for very specific reasons and short periods.

Hawkyns

[Perkeo]

Being some one who is in the SCA...(I know not every one likes the SCA)...I am a history buff. I find it hard to get some of the more period things I want for various reasons, but I like to do the research and try to at least pattern the things I have after period stuff. I believe in having fun first and being accurate last. Besides making the authentisity nazi's upset can be a lot of fun in itself.

[John_Young]

Aye, well I'm not meaning the actual *fabrics* of the garb.

I don't mind it at all, and my main shirt... well I've had it for 10 years already.

Natural fabrics are the way te go

[Conner O'Dea]

I think that you should be accurate to a point. I perscribe to the 10 feet rule. If it looks accurate 10 feet away you're good. Anything closer than that tends not to be worth the cost and hassle. I do agree with using natural fibers for teh simple fact that they breath. That comes in handy when you're at a faire where the temp is pushing 90.

[Capt Grey]

I likes RumbaRue's group who claim they are more "hysterically" accurate than historically accurate.

I prefers this look fer me Captain Hook:

Kin I haves him on me birthday cake, Rumba?

Sorry t'interrupt yer discussion but this Captain be likin' the silly and irrelevent sometimes.

[Rosalinda]

I likes RumbaRue's group who claim they are more "hysterically" accurate than historically accurate.

I prefers this look fer me Captain Hook:

Kin I haves him on me birthday cake, Rumba?

Sorry t'interrupt yer discussion but this Captain be likin' the silly and irrelevent sometimes.

Some things are worth repeating.

[Hawkyns]

If it looks accurate 10 feet away you're good. Anything closer than that tends not to be worth the cost and hassle.

That, mate, is entirely a matter of opinion. I've spent more hours than I care to count in museums, craning my neck and falling foul of alarm systems to see the back side of exhibits to see how they were properly constructed. For every hour I spend in kit, I figure I've spend well upwards of 10 hours doing research.

For me, my ultimate goal is that if we ever do get to the time machine, I can take my stuff and have it be indistinguishable from the originals. Failing that, I want to put my stuff alongside museum artifacts and have them be as identical as possible, given nearly 400 years of aging difference.

As I've said before, for me its a lifestyle challenge. To know how they lived, what they thought, what they wore, what they used- so much of this information has been lost. The more we can rediscover by finding lost journals, records, etc., and by experimetal archeology, actually trying to duplicate what we can of their lifestyle, the better for history.

It's not the glitz for me, it's the day to day. A filthy shirt, linen slops, and a torn doublet will teach me more about them than any braid covered captain's coat.

Hawkyns