Proof of Period Leather for Garments (Sort of)

[Mission]

"UPON our Mountains, and especially on the Pyrenees, we meet with a kind of wild Goat, call'd, the Shamoy, or Rock Goat. There is a great Trade carried on with these Skins, by which they convey Oil, Wine, and other Liquids, out of the mountainous Countries, and of which they make several other Uses; for these Shamoy Skins, being dress'd, are converted into Gloves, Stockings, Drawers, Breeches, Waste-coats, Petticoats, Caps, &c. because they may be wafh'd as Linen is, and be dyed into what curious Colour you please, as Orange, Lemon, Buff, Buff, Black, Green, Red, Blue or the Like." (Pierre Pomet, The Compleate History of Druggs, 3rd Edition (1737), p. 260)

I am guessing that Shamoy is the English version of 'Chamois.'

Just by way of reference, the first English translation of Pomet's book appeared in 1712 and they kept adding bits to it from other authors. However, this quote is from the original translation of Pomet's 1684 French edition Histoire generale des drogues, so it quite covers all of our period.)

[Brit.Privateer]

Interesting quote, especially how it's described this leather as being washable as linen (though it's not like we are dealing with cow hide here), but a question:

Is this a discussion of maritime people in the Atlantic world wearing leather clothes? If so, I think we have done that on other parts of the forum (though I don't think it's had it's own thread). We can document their existence (you have to look at deceased sailor's inventories of the period). In particular, leather breeches are listed on several occasions as being owned by sailors (as for other articles of maritime clothing outside of caps/hats and shoes, other references in period sources have eluded me thus far), but the problem is that we have not found any pictures/drawings, written descricptions, or archaeological finds that describe the kind of leather used or how they would have been constructed.

If this just for leather clothing as a whole, I think other examples can be found of leather clothing used on land. What immediately comes to mind are leather aprons used in a few professions. The quote actually reminds me of the description of clothes made of goat skins in Robinson Crusoe.

[Mission]

Placing it here in it's own topic was a bit tongue-in-cheek - I know people who will give all manner of reasons why a leather waistcoat is period appropriate. In fact, it originally had another title that was much goofier, but it had a typo and as I was correcting it, I decided to make it sound more serious for the hell of it. But still tongue-in-cheek. (Sort of.)

I found several facets of interest in the quote, though. Pomet said there was "a great trade carried out," He noted that it was used to make clothing of all sorts including minor items like stockings (which I had fun trying to imagine.) Plus he said it came in many different colors. On top of all that, it was washable "like linen is"! Well, that and I had never seen reference to this particular material being used during period before and I found it in a book I knew no one else was likely to read.

If you want to find fault with the quote, the first criticism that came to my mind was about how widespread use of such material might be since he refers specifically to southern France. (As I mentioned, it was originally written in French.) It's difficult to say what "a great trade" meant, exactly. Although, as I'll be discussing this month, goats were in extraordinarily wide use as food by sailors, so their skin would have been available as well if anyone wanted to use it.

[Zaknesbitt]

Even more likely evidence for sailors wearing leather garments, comes from Ned Ward's London Spy, overhearing an if slightly exaggerated conversation of one-upsmanship between two 'tarpaulins' in a tavern in Billingsgate, 'I once was sitting upon my chest, between decks, mending an old canvas jacket. We had found by our observations that day we were within a few minutes of being under the Tropic of Cancer; and on a sudden it began to lower[not sure what], and the larboard watch handed in our sails, for fear of a tornado or a squall. At last a beam of lightning darted through an open port, melted one of the guns, went through a pair of buckskin breeches I had on, and burned the lappets of a blue shirt to tinder.'

A little unlikely, as are many a tars' tall tails, but the fact stands he said he was wearing buskin, and under the tropic of Cancer no less.

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I have read of soldiers/ cavelry wearing leather buff coats. I have considered doing this for my character when going into battle, though i did have a friend say it would not have held up well in the salt and the elements, then again, the boucaniers were supposed to have worn leather pants etc. so idk... I would like to be able to wear a leather buff coat, for battle demonstrations, seeing as my character has a sort of thing....

[Mission]

Just for the heck of it, I started searching the Twill archives for discussions on the use of leather in clothing (other than footwear), but I didn't find a particular topic. (Not that this is such a topic, mind you, it just sort of turned in that direction briefly.)

I did find one discussing a particular leather hat supposed to have been recovered from the HMS Stirling Castle which sunk in 1703. Alas, the image link has been broken: GAoP Leather Hat. There's also the Leather Capps faced with Red Cotton discussion, although that tends to run off the rails in several places.

Then there are the admiralty slop contracts which everyone seems to love to cite when this topic comes up. GoF started a topic with these and what I found in there were leather pockets and caps: The Admiralty Slop Contracts

Foxe also did a bang-up job assembling references from various sources for each piece of clothing in a thread called Colours and fabrics of sailors' clothing which lists four pair of leather breeches.

As for buff coats, I only found them in the Clothing from Vassa 1628 thread that basically concludes that they probably wouldn't be worn at sea for multiple reasons which didn't include salt. although that is mentioned in a couple other places such as a discussion on shoes in the Sewing Room forum. In fact, there was a real nice running discussion about buff coats in the Sewing Room under the only thread I could find relating specifically to leather clothing other than that hat: Leather Waistcoat.

And, of course, there are multiple thread on caps, tricorns and breeches that include brief verbal skirmishes on the appropriateness of leather in clothing, but they are many and varied in reliability of the poster's content, so that exercise is left to the student.

[Fox]

I have read of soldiers/ cavelry wearing leather buff coats. I have considered doing this for my character when going into battle, though i did have a friend say it would not have held up well in the salt and the elements, then again, the boucaniers were supposed to have worn leather pants etc. so idk... I would like to be able to wear a leather buff coat, for battle demonstrations, seeing as my character has a sort of thing....

My favourite, Nathaniel Butler, said his preferred armour at sea was a good buff jerkin. There's no reason that a buff coat would have been any less hardy in salt water than any other item of leather clothing, including shoes, which have survived in numerous shipwrecks for hundreds of years.

Bear in mid though that a buff coat is not just leather, it's LEATHER. Really thick. Really really thick. Some proper reconstructions I've seen stand up by themselves, though some period artistic representations suggest a more supple (but no thinner) leather in use.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/buff-coats-and-baldricks

[Mission]

Foxe, do you have a link to that hat you guys were discussing from the Stirling Castle? I tried an image search but I either wind up here or on the Brethren website where the image link is broken.

[Brit.Privateer]

I have read of soldiers/ cavelry wearing leather buff coats. I have considered doing this for my character when going into battle, though i did have a friend say it would not have held up well in the salt and the elements, then again, the boucaniers were supposed to have worn leather pants etc. so idk... I would like to be able to wear a leather buff coat, for battle demonstrations, seeing as my character has a sort of thing....

My favourite, Nathaniel Butler, said his preferred armour at sea was a good buff jerkin. There's no reason that a buff coat would have been any less hardy in salt water than any other item of leather clothing, including shoes, which have survived in numerous shipwrecks for hundreds of years.

Bear in mid though that a buff coat is not just leather, it's LEATHER. Really thick. Really really thick. Some proper reconstructions I've seen stand up by themselves, though some period artistic representations suggest a more supple (but no thinner) leather in use.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/buff-coats-and-baldricks

It appears that we are talking about a few periods different periods here. Now, I mainly concentrate on the later period of the late 17th and early 18th century. The references to buff coats appear to come from the English Civil War period. Now, besides caps, breeches, shoes, and the pockets of some garments (and the possibility of turning animal skins into clothing, but the only maritime sailor reference for the later period that I have is Alexander Selkirk, and that was an exceptional case); I have yet to find references to any other leather clothes for sailors of the later period I mentioned previously. Now, I would be real interested to see if other refernces could be found to anything else (the buff coats are kind of interesting), but for now I have no reason to think that there is anything else that would be added to that list for the later period for maritime use.

[Fox]

Nathaniel Butler is certainly pre-GAoP, 1620s or so.

I'll have to see if I can find a hat link for you Mission...

[Zaknesbitt]

I have read of soldiers/ cavelry wearing leather buff coats. I have considered doing this for my character when going into battle, though i did have a friend say it would not have held up well in the salt and the elements, then again, the boucaniers were supposed to have worn leather pants etc. so idk... I would like to be able to wear a leather buff coat, for battle demonstrations, seeing as my character has a sort of thing....

My favourite, Nathaniel Butler, said his preferred armour at sea was a good buff jerkin. There's no reason that a buff coat would have been any less hardy in salt water than any other item of leather clothing, including shoes, which have survived in numerous shipwrecks for hundreds of years.

Bear in mid though that a buff coat is not just leather, it's LEATHER. Really thick. Really really thick. Some proper reconstructions I've seen stand up by themselves, though some period artistic representations suggest a more supple (but no thinner) leather in use.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/buff-coats-and-baldricks

It appears that we are talking about a few periods different periods here. Now, I mainly concentrate on the later period of the late 17th and early 18th century. The references to buff coats appear to come from the English Civil War period. Now, besides caps, breeches, shoes, and the pockets of some garments (and the possibility of turning animal skins into clothing, but the only maritime sailor reference for the later period that I have is Alexander Selkirk, and that was an exceptional case); I have yet to find references to any other leather clothes for sailors of the later period I mentioned previously. Now, I would be real interested to see if other refernces could be found to anything else (the buff coats are kind of interesting), but for now I have no reason to think that there is anything else that would be added to that list for the later period for maritime use.

See my quote ^ from Ward's London Spy published in 1703 :)

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I have read of soldiers/ cavelry wearing leather buff coats. I have considered doing this for my character when going into battle, though i did have a friend say it would not have held up well in the salt and the elements, then again, the boucaniers were supposed to have worn leather pants etc. so idk... I would like to be able to wear a leather buff coat, for battle demonstrations, seeing as my character has a sort of thing....

My favourite, Nathaniel Butler, said his preferred armour at sea was a good buff jerkin. There's no reason that a buff coat would have been any less hardy in salt water than any other item of leather clothing, including shoes, which have survived in numerous shipwrecks for hundreds of years.

Bear in mid though that a buff coat is not just leather, it's LEATHER. Really thick. Really really thick. Some proper reconstructions I've seen stand up by themselves, though some period artistic representations suggest a more supple (but no thinner) leather in use.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/buff-coats-and-baldricks

thanks, you guys have more experience in this than me... so yeah, I guess I'll give the buff coat the green light and look into it a little more.

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I have read of soldiers/ cavelry wearing leather buff coats. I have considered doing this for my character when going into battle, though i did have a friend say it would not have held up well in the salt and the elements, then again, the boucaniers were supposed to have worn leather pants etc. so idk... I would like to be able to wear a leather buff coat, for battle demonstrations, seeing as my character has a sort of thing....

My favourite, Nathaniel Butler, said his preferred armour at sea was a good buff jerkin. There's no reason that a buff coat would have been any less hardy in salt water than any other item of leather clothing, including shoes, which have survived in numerous shipwrecks for hundreds of years.

Bear in mid though that a buff coat is not just leather, it's LEATHER. Really thick. Really really thick. Some proper reconstructions I've seen stand up by themselves, though some period artistic representations suggest a more supple (but no thinner) leather in use.

http://www.royalarmouries.org/learning/online-learning/littlecote-house-module/explore-littlecote-house-without-flash/great-hall-in-littlecote-house/buff-coats-and-baldricks

It appears that we are talking about a few periods different periods here. Now, I mainly concentrate on the later period of the late 17th and early 18th century. The references to buff coats appear to come from the English Civil War period. Now, besides caps, breeches, shoes, and the pockets of some garments (and the possibility of turning animal skins into clothing, but the only maritime sailor reference for the later period that I have is Alexander Selkirk, and that was an exceptional case); I have yet to find references to any other leather clothes for sailors of the later period I mentioned previously. Now, I would be real interested to see if other refernces could be found to anything else (the buff coats are kind of interesting), but for now I have no reason to think that there is anything else that would be added to that list for the later period for maritime use.

See my quote ^ from Ward's London Spy published in 1703 :)

yeah, my focus is roughly 1660-1690, in a gentleman boucanier portrayal, and I have seen examples on Nicole Kipar's website. thank you for helping me with this guys. Seeing what I am attempting to portray, it's kind of important to be in the general area of historical authenticity, if not right in there.