Mission Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 I'm not saying it didn't happen, that would be absurd. I'm saying it doesn't appear to have been very common at sea. If it were, at least one of the sea surgeon's guides would have devoted space on what to do in that case. Sea surgeon manuals were targeted towards operations the surgeon might encounter. They were meant to be a sort of quick reference manual for newly minted surgeons or (in the worst case) laymen who were tasked with performing surgery at sea where no surgeon was present. This is why none of them discuss how to deliver infants, for example. So the lack of information on how to treat a damaged or missing eye is somewhat telling by its absence. As for your images, those all appear to be examples of couching - pushing cataracts out of the way of vision in the eye. The middle drawing (from Lorenz Heister's 1742 book, I think) shows this pretty clearly. The surgeon actually inserts a small needle into the eye to try to move the cataract. That's why the surgeon is holding a small instrument each photo. There are several examples of the couching procedure mentioned in period medicine books. (And why not? The operation has been around since before the birth of Christ.) But this procedure is not mentioned in any of the sea surgeon manuals, because, as an elective surgery, it would not be performed at sea where the ship moving might interfere with such a delicate operation. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) I'm not saying it didn't happen, that would be absurd. I'm saying it doesn't appear to have been very common at sea. If it were, at least one of the sea surgeon's guides would have devoted space on what to do in that case. Sea surgeon manuals were targeted towards operations the surgeon might encounter. They were meant to be a sort of quick reference manual for newly minted surgeons or (in the worst case) laymen who were tasked with performing surgery at sea where no surgeon was present. This is why none of them discuss how to deliver infants, for example. So the lack of information on how to treat a damaged or missing eye is somewhat telling by its absence. As for your images, those all appear to be examples of couching - pushing cataracts out of the way of vision in the eye. The middle drawing (from Lorenz Heister, I think) shows this pretty clearly. The surgeon actually inserts a small needle into the eye to try to move the cataract. That's why the surgeon is holding a small instrument each photo. There are several examples of the couching procedure mentioned in period medicine books. (And why not? The operation has been around since before the birth of Christ.) But this procedure is not mentioned in any of the sea surgeon manuals, because, as an elective surgery, it would not be an operation that would be performed at sea where the ship moving interfere with such a delicate operation. Indeed I think that you are right. I think you still need to mention (in your surgeon bage) that eyes were lost. But It was not as common than people migth think. so sailor with wooden leg was more common sight than one eyed or indeed eye pacthed... What do you say about that sailor picture (pensioners) the man has quite clear eye pacth and I think that there are some few more pensioner pictures with eye patches than that. But sadly it is a bit later (from later 18th c) : / Edited June 2, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Mission Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 I found this in Dionis's book (Dionis being a French land surgeon during period.) It doesn't say much about the likelihood of eye injuries, nor anything about their occurrence at sea, but it is still interesting in light of our discussion. “We draw two Advantages from this Addition, the first is ornamental, as when we fix in an artificial Eye or Tooth; the second, is for Necessity, as when we add a wooden Arm or Leg; and ‘tis particularly this last Species of Prosthesis which is necessary, since without its help the Man can’t act." (Dionis, p. 416) Oh, and here it is! I am wrong in what I said about there being no accounts of eyes being lost at sea! “EXAMPLE III. An Eye struck out by a Splinter making one Side of the Os Nasi and Spongiosi bare. Alexander Henderson, in that grand Naval Fight of ours with the French off Malaga, 1703. had his left Eye struck out by a Splinter, making that Side of the Os Nasi and Spongiosi bare: and from which several little Splints of them were easily drawn away with the Forceps. I cut away the lacerated Teguments in the Wounds, as far as they appeared to be insensible; drest it and the Bone immediately with equal Parts of Tinct. Myrrh. a Fomentation and Decoction warm’d; over that again Pledgets of Digestive, a Compress, and a double Fold of Linnen pinned down to retain all. Where one Side of the Os Nasi was perceived loose, stricter __ Bandage would have depressed and disfigur’d: Instead of which, I advised him to practice the Smoothing of it, with his Finger frequently, that it might fasten evenly. In six Weeks the Wound was incarned [skin had regrown in it], and healed; but soon gave Notice by a pricking Pain, Tenderness, and Tumor about it, that some Ossicles [small pieces of bone] or Exfoliation was further to be expected. The Cicatrix [scar covering the wound] being thin, I broke through it with my Probe, and enlarged with the Scissars, discharging a fœtid Matter. A small Scale or two soon came away by the Wound; as did also another thro’ his Nose, (on blowing of it;) after this it healed, and continued firm.” (John Atkins, The Navy Surgeon, p. 142-3) No mention of an eye patch, but it is a splinter taking out an eye at sea. Unfortunately, it's the only one I found. (I don't know how I missed it before.) Here's some grisly ones for you that have nothing to do with the sea. (Bradwell has some of the most bizarre cases and treatments in his book. That's why I read it.) "I was in place about seaven yeares since, when some Gentlemen were taking Tobacco; and as one had knocked out the snuffe or coale of it on the Table; another in jest blew it toward him, he also blew it at him againe. This began to be pursued from one to the other, till a little Girle looking on (whose height was little above the Table) received the evill of their jesting; for some of the burning coale of Tobacco was blown into her eye. It tormented her extreamely (as nothing burneth more terribly) I ran into the garden, where I found some ground Ivie, whereof I gathered some,__ which I stamped, and strayned, and putting a little fine powdred Sugar to the Juice, I dropped some of it into her eye; upon which she received sudden ease, and had it not applyed above twice more, before she was perfectly well: But in the meane time, her eye was muffled up from the outward ayre. Here observe that the eye must never be dressed with any Oyle or Oyntment [the common treatment for burning was egg white with oil - I have often seen recipes call for "salatting [salad] oyle"]; because oyly and greasie things diminish the sight." (Stephen Bradwell, Helps for Suddain Accidents Endangering Life, p. 122-3) ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ Not long agoe I saw a young man stung in the eye-ball with a Bee, while he was too closely looking into the doore of the hive: But the Bee left not her sting there. Upon the place, I tooke a handfull of Carduus benedictus [blessed thistle] newly gathered, pounded it into a morter very fine, and mixed it with the white of an egge, so spreading it upon a pledget of flaxe, I laid it to the eye, and as it waxed dry, renued it twice. This Playster of Carduus is excellent to recover the eye if any venomous juice be spurted into it, or if the eye be hurt by a corrupt ayre, which the common people call baslting: It easeth paines; taketh away bloudy spots in the eyes; and is good for all burnings in, or about the eyes." (Bradwell, p. 48-9) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Mission Posted June 2, 2012 Author Posted June 2, 2012 What do you say about that sailor picture (pensioners) the man has quite clear eye pacth and I think that there are some few more pensioner pictures with eye patches than that. But sadly it is a bit later (from later 18th c) : / It's still a pretty good find IMO. It proves yet another sailor lost his eye somewhere along the way, although it doesn't necessarily mean this was at sea. But it is an 18th century eye patch on a sailor. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 At least there were one eyed men but how much did they have eye patches that is still a bit unsure.... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Fox Posted June 2, 2012 Posted June 2, 2012 Philip Lyne, a pirate, lost an eye. They didn't cure it though, they hanged him. Probably a bit extreme for most surgeons. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 Philip Lyne, a pirate, lost an eye. They didn't cure it though, they hanged him. Probably a bit extreme for most surgeons. Surgeon hangeg him? I think since as far as I know eyes are hard to cure perhaps reason for that why there is little mentions about eye cases is due of that there were no real treantment.... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Mission Posted June 3, 2012 Author Posted June 3, 2012 What's that from, Ed? Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Fox Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 It was a bit tongue in cheek. "as they were very much wounded, and no care taken in dressing, they were very offensive, and Stunk as they went along, particularly Lines, the Commander, who had one Eye shot out, which with part of his Nose hung down his Face..." The Evening Post, 28 May 1726, describes Lyne and his crew on the way to their trial. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk
Mission Posted June 3, 2012 Author Posted June 3, 2012 Ah. Still it's another example of pirate with no eye. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Hmm even greener ligth for one eyed pirates but for eyepatches evidence it is not too clear.... Edited June 3, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Mission Posted June 3, 2012 Author Posted June 3, 2012 Yeah, I'd say we have to call pirate eyepatches an unknown at this time. They certainly existed and it seems logical that they might be used in the case of medical/cosmetic cases, but no evidence has been produced. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 18, 2013 Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) Nothing groundbreaking but something more to this old thread too late for gaop but it seems to me that scarfs were used to cover many wounds including eyes No date but it is made by Thomas Rowlandson (13 July 1756 – 21 April 1827) likely not much after the battle (1798) This is even later but a Trafalgar veteran circa 1844 Edited June 18, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Jib Posted June 19, 2013 Posted June 19, 2013 When I was a kid and road the school bus to grade school, I had a friend who had what he called a "dead eye". His eye turned milky the older he got. Despite not being able to see out of the eye it was sensitive to light. By the time we were both in High School he had a permanent squint with one eye (think Popeye). So let me suggest this. Perhaps a patch wasn't as often when a sailor lost an eye but instead had a damaged eye?
Mission Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 It's quite possible. I vaguely recall having a discussion about using an an eye patch to cover damaged eyes, either here on on my Pirate Surgeon Facebook page. The trope about peg-legged, hook-armed, patched-eye sailor probably originated with the Greenwich Pensioners, as pointed out by Foxe. Based on pm discussions I had with Brit.Privateer, I came to the conclusion that the pirate connection was just a refined Hollywood extension of those caricatured sailors. (Do an image search for Greenwich pensioner and you'll see all sorts of cartooned former sailors with battle damage.) As I mentioned in the article I wrote after we had this discussion, damaged eyes were also common on land. I found several period references to this, although I didn't use all of them in my write-up because I was focusing on eye damage sustained at sea. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted June 23, 2013 Posted June 23, 2013 (edited) Furthermore about Horatio Nelson. Yes not a pirate and later than Gaop but related enough I think. Firstly a picture of wounded Nelson wearing a scarf/bandage circa 1800 Here a part of the NMM's description "The portrait is believed to have been owned by Nelson. This significantly means that it is probably based on an accurate account of his battered appearance at this period. He had been severely injured above the eye, bandaged, racked with a headache and pain, and probably concussed." Just to show that eyes could get hurt in battles during the age of sail. Not that anyone would have said anything else. There has been a popular myth that Nelson wore an eye-patch Hollywood seems to the one to blame but I don't know how old the myth is. Nelson in "That Hamilton Woman" in 1941 One of the countless places where the myth is busted Yes it is serious site while the picture there is humorous http://www.forteantimes.com/strangedays/mythbusters/356/lord_nelsons_eyepatch.html The Stuff of the Nelson's navy and era has been mixed to pirates in great many fictional works and I believe the myth that nelson had an black eye-patch has something to do with the pirates' eye-patch too. Edited June 23, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Daniel Posted July 3, 2013 Posted July 3, 2013 Here's an article by Benerson Little on eyepatches http://undertheblackflag.com/?p=2904〈=en. He says Captain Colepepper wore an eyepatch in Walter Scott's The Fortunes of Nigel, which may have been the first appearance of a pirate eyepatch in fiction. Oddly, I can't think of an eyepatch being shown by any of the famous old-time pirate illustrators: Pyle, Schoonover, or even Wyeth.
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) Oh I knew that article. All in all I like all the stuff Beneson Little has in his sites and articles. Someday perhaps I need to read some of his books... And well Pyle's paintings don't show much eye patches but he made also other illustrations. Like here Still he generally showed pirates with both eyes and legs. I think the lack of those pirate cliches is one reason why at least sometimes, if not often, Pyle's works have been though to be more accurate than they are.... Edited July 4, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones
Mission Posted July 4, 2013 Author Posted July 4, 2013 Some of Pyle's works are definitely more accurate than others. I have used them on my website on occasion. It is almost impossible to avoid putting modern touches in your work, though. We live in the now and can only view the past through a lens which includes our experiences. (I am always curious when people who say they should have been born in another time - past or future. They would be completely lost and anyone who believes otherwise is fooling themselves. You could adapt, of course, because humans are built to do that to a degree, but I doubt they'd be nearly as happy as they think.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
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