striped shirts

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Hi it is interesting that so overused in pirate movies stripes shirts are not 100% inaccurate. But it seems that gaop the striped shirts had bit different look that the Hollywood ones. Once again I am wondering clothing as the historical issue so I have no need to pattern etc.

https://pyracy.com/in...ilors-clothing/

[Hawkyns]

Ticking type stripes can be documented back to at least the end of the 16th Century. The stripes are thin, 1/4-3/8 inch, and run vertically when made into clothing. This was a common fabric and used, as it it still is for pillows and mattress covers.

Hawkyns

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

I really ike this illustration. I am planning on replicating several of these items for an impression. Still trying to figure ou what the hell the "loose fitting white or red jacket or vest" is....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

It is just a loose fitting white or red jacket or vest. It don't have sleeves .... I wonder what is the " sombrero" to me it is almost tricorn but who knows...

Those caps are interesting I like the rigth one ( since the left one is silly looking but I must accept that often historical clothing was not too cool looking)

[Mission]

FYI, 'sombrero' simply means 'hat' in Spanish. Any kind of hat.

It is only in American English that it is associated with the large Mexican-style as seen in this notable historically accurate woodcut.

[Fox]

The big problem with all the stuff in this illustration is that nobody seems to know where the illustration came from...

[Brit.Privateer]

The big problem with all the stuff in this illustration is that nobody seems to know where the illustration came from...

Actually...it comes from this:

http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/armadaEspannola/ciencia_museo/06_documentacion--02_archivo--01_del_deposito_hidrografico--coleccion-marques-victoria

Álbum del Marqués de la Victoria

Dictionary of Ancient and Modern Naval Architecture of Juan José Navarro de Viana and Buffalo (1687-1772), first Marquis of Victoria, Captain General of the Royal Navy.

"D. Juan Jose Navarro was certainly the most versatile of the sailors illustrated military, engineer, seaman and great artist. His masterpiece, made ​​between 1719 and 1756, the demonstration Dictionary of Ancient and Modern naval architecture and shipbuilding album, as is generally known, is a veritable encyclopedia of what has to do with the ship.

The Dictionary is divided into four main sections relating to shipbuilding, the rigging, the ship's equipment, understood in its broadest form, and a section on some particular features.

The section on shipbuilding, including aspects relating to the supply of timber from its location, selection, harvesting and curing, to hand to form the structure of a ship to England.

The rigging is from all aspects, from the preparation and trees with sticks and rods, through the provision of the standing and work, referring to the types of motonería to cutting and handling the sails.

In a third section could include the ship's equipment, including boats and barges, tools for carpenters and other trades of the ship and the shipyard, the materials used for construction, fittings, nails, and all aspects of the equipment the vessel. This block would be especially important to study the artillery and exhibits relating to the offices of the ship, a veritable catalog of life on board.

Complete dictionary a number of peculiarities and curiosities which can be grouped in a fourth block, which begins with the delineation of the ancient monuments of the ships they used, and they have been, in marble, obelisks, paintings and medals, which is can add a number of films concerning the disposal of stockpiles, machinery, hoists and infrastructure.

A special treatment required set of sheets, numbered from folio 126 to 133, Navarro grouped under the name of the timber Addicion oak used in the New Building of the English, the Rig Ore Fine rig and Rules for guarnirl or observing. Although these contents are not homogeneous and should be included in the section on each of them inside the Dictionary, chronologically are similar and represent the results of the Boards of Builders held in Cadiz in 1752."

The 1995 reprint of this is very rare (only a thousand printed), so if you ever can get it, it's worth its weight in gold. This website only has low quality pics of the book.

[Capt. Trueblood]

The middle cap, with it's distinctive brim, looks rather like a Montero.

Ivan, the "loose fitting white or red jacket or vest" looks like a wide, double-breasted. short waistcoat.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Capt. Trueblood

[Mission]

So (just to be clear) this image really only tells us what Spanish sailors might have been wearing, not English sailors. Thus you could use it to create a Spaniard's look, but you can't really use it to make generalized statements about what English sailors may have been wearing. (Of course, there's always that favorite fallback argument, "But I stole 'em from..." ) From what I've read and the images Swashbuckler has found, the cultures seem to have been noticeably different in style of dress and during the GAoP. If people were as prejudiced against opposing cultures then as they are now (and they seem to have been as bad if not worse - as the English epithet 'Papist!' bears out), most of them probably would prefer not to adopt the other culture's style of clothing.

When I say 'opposing cultures,' I say this because Spain seems to have been in and out of war with the other European nations all throughout the GAoP, probably due in no small part to all the wealth they had accumulated from the new world. I particularly want to make everyone aware of the War of Jenkins' Ear, not because it's so relevant (it's not - it's slightly post period), but because it's a funny name for a war. Although... poor Jenkins.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

So (just to be clear) this image really only tells us what Spanish sailors might have been wearing, not English sailors. Thus you could use it to create a Spaniard's look, but you can't really use it to make generalized statements about what English sailors may have been wearing. (Of course, there's always that favorite fallback argument, "But I stole 'em from..." ) From what I've read and the images Swashbuckler has found, the cultures seem to have been noticeably different in style of dress and during the GAoP. If people were as prejudiced against opposing cultures then as they are now (and they seem to have been as bad if not worse - as the English epithet 'Papist!' bears out), most of them probably would prefer not to adopt the other culture's style of clothing.

When I say 'opposing cultures,' I say this because Spain seems to have been in and out of war with the other European nations all throughout the GAoP, probably due in no small part to all the wealth they had accumulated from the new world. I particularly want to make everyone aware of the War of Jenkins' Ear, not because it's so relevant (it's not - it's slightly post period), but because it's a funny name for a war. Although... poor Jenkins.

About striped shirts they were English fashion too see my first link of Foxe's Statistics about English sailor's clothing. And jenking was probably a pirate not a less or that was what the Spaniards believed.... And actually we cannot be sure was it even his ear since when he showed cut ear to the politicians he was wearing a large wig. Latter Jenkins info is from a book that I have studied for my high school thesis (about Atlantic slave trade) book is quite new but on other hand old from 1970s

About striped shirts they were English fashion too see my first link of Foxe's Statistics about English sailor's clothing. And jenking was probably a pirate not a less or that was what the Spaniards believed.... And actually we cannot be sure was it even his ear since when he showed cut ear to the politicians he was wearing a large wig. Latter Jenkins info is from a book that I have studied for my high school thesis (about Atlantic slave trade) book is quite new but on other hand old from 1970s http://abilita.fi/fredrika/title_items.aspx?bid=9510000833 &kcode=&bcode=&acode= but you don't get much info out of it since it is mostly Finnish but original French author is there....

Edited May 12, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Mission]

I agree there were striped shirts based on evidence that has been produced here in the past. However, my point was that we can't just assume they would be the same as what the Spanish wore for the reasons cited. They may be the same, or they may not.

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

It is just a loose fitting white or red jacket or vest. It don't have sleeves .... I wonder what is the " sombrero" to me it is almost tricorn but who knows...

Those caps are interesting I like the rigth one ( since the left one is silly looking but I must accept that often historical clothing was not too cool looking)

Take a closer look - there are no arm holes. It's almost a corset or something.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

It is just a loose fitting white or red jacket or vest. It don't have sleeves .... I wonder what is the " sombrero" to me it is almost tricorn but who knows...

Those caps are interesting I like the rigth one ( since the left one is silly looking but I must accept that often historical clothing was not too cool looking)

Take a closer look - there are no arm holes. It's almost a corset or something.

There is amr holes look. they ae just badly drawn see there is 2 holes in both sides they sees to be too close to the neck hole...

[PoD]

It looks like it wraps across the whole front of the body and buttons down the sides. I've been trying to find something that looks similar all day but havent found any examples of that kind of design from the GAOP period.

Do we have any pictures of spanish sailors wearing what looks like a smock as this is probably what this would look like especially if it was beneath a coat?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Again I am stuck with the clothing and without any specific reason and I am still wondering this as a historical issue: I wonder is there any reason not to think that some of the striped garments (like shirts, breeches and waistcoats) used by sailor in Gaop might have some horizontal stripes? There is no doubt about vertically striped clothing (like seen in the shirt in the first picture of this tread, or seen in many pictures of Gaop/ near Gaop seamen with that kind of striped waistcoats). At least we know that in later period Napoleonic sailors had striped clothing with both vertical and horizontal stripes...

like here well a kater painting circa 1825 (but only 20 years after the event it's presents)

What if the old movie look is not so inaccurate as we might think..... but I am not really saying that the popular image of pirates is correct but just wondering since a long time ago I have doomed that kind of striped shirts as an inaccurate thing

Edited December 27, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Brit.Privateer]

Never assume that just because the Navy or sailors did particular things in the Napoleonic era that they also did it 100 years previous. Plenty of maritime historians have done this, as pointed out by N.A.M. Rodgers in The Wooden World: An Anatomy of the Georgian Navy. Many do this because it's easy to do. The late 18th and early 19th century has a bounty of documentation and images available, so many people in literature, film, and even history studies have relied on them for earlier periods, just assuming that things had always been the same.

As for the striped shirt being horizontal, no evidence indicates horizontal stripes being in vogue at this time. Just like other fashions, stripes came in and out of fashion over time, as did their orientation. During the GAOP, it was vertical stripes. As for being on shirts, the documentation concerning shirts of this period talk much about plain shirts of one color and checked (or "speckled") shirts. Rarely does stripes on shirts come up (in fact, the Spanish document is the only one that immediately comes to mind that mentions any striped shirts during this period).

[Swashbuckler 1700]

If we trust Foxes study here there were many types of shirts and many with stripes http://forums.pyrate...c.php?f=10&t=19

Edited December 27, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Brit.Privateer]

I forget about that sampling he did. I should have specified before that I was referring to images of sailors, but let's work with this. Based on the sources for the survey, of the 82 shirts listed there, 76 of them come from the 204 shirts listed in the Joseph Haycock Slop Shop inventory of 1699. I do wonder where the other 6 references came from? While striped shirts were around, I wouldn't say they were the norm, for I see references to single-colored shirts and the checker/speckled than I do stripes.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Oh I was not saying that they would have been really common but just that there were there among plain and checker/speckled shirts.