Gaop pirate nationalities.....

[Fox]

Christopher Moody 28 (was he never even a captain?)

No, despite the fact that many historians associate 'Captain Moody' with him, he was never a captain. The 'Captain Moody' mentioned in other documents was most likely either Samuel or William.

Further to this, looking back over WIlliam Bournal's trial for the la Buse thread I see it is confirmed that William Moody was captain of the Rising Sun

[Swashbuckler 1700]

That explainss quite a bit. So it is just error but I wonder who id it?

[Fox]

Many many people did it. There are various references to a 'Captain Moody', and the name 'Christopher Moody' is familiar from the GHP, so people put them together.

You actually have to read stuff in an archive to find the name William Moody...

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Here's another bit that you might find interesting, from Jacob du Bucquoy's account of his time as a captive of John Taylor:

"he divided his men into squads [messes] of seven men, consisting, for example, of a Frenchman, a Swede, a Portuguese and three or four Englishmen, so that the English, on whom he could depend, were always in the majority, and could warn him of all that was done or said on board."

Looking many quotes the number of Swedes is interesting. It is not huge but it is interesting how many times it is used as example of non english crewman

I know that at least in Nelson's navy there were Swedes around but what about GHoP Now speaking navy since they would be a little less mulicultural... or at least I think so.

List of HMS Victory's crew's nationalities in 1805. Think about it.... it was "English" navy after all.

" 515 English, 88 Irish, 67 Scottish, 50 Welsh, 1 African, 1 Brazilian, 2 Danish, 4 French, 2 Indian, 6 Maltese, 1 Portuguese, 2 Swiss, 22 American, 2 Canadian, 7 Dutch, 2 German, 1 Jamaican, 2 Norwegian, 4 Swedish, 4 West Indian, 48 Unknown."

oh and source http://dalyhistory.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/the-crew-of-hms-victory-at-trafalgar/

[Mission]

List of HMS Victory's crew's nationalities in 1805. Think about it.... it was "English" navy after all.

" 515 English, 88 Irish, 67 Scottish, 50 Welsh, 1 African, 1 Brazilian, 2 Danish, 4 French, 2 Indian, 6 Maltese, 1 Portuguese, 2 Swiss, 22 American, 2 Canadian, 7 Dutch, 2 German, 1 Jamaican, 2 Norwegian, 4 Swedish, 4 West Indian, 48 Unknown."

oh and source http://dalyhistory.w...y-at-trafalgar/

Well, the four largest nationalities make logical sense. They were all part of the United Kingdom as of the Union Act in 1800. If you add them all together, you get 720 crew members from the UK. Out of the total of 883, that's 81.5%. I don't get the impression it was unusual for people to wind up in different navies, either. Several of the military sea-surgeons I studied were in foreign navies during their lifetimes.

Looking at the other nationalities by % (and ignoring the unknowns who could have been anything, including English):

22 American - 2.5%

7 Dutch - 0.8%

6 Maltese - 0.7%

4 French - 0.5%

4 Swedish - 0.5%

4 West Indian - 0.5%

2 Canadian - 0.2%

2 Danish - 0.2%

2 German - 0.2%

2 Indian - 0.2%

2 Norwegian - 0.2%

2 Swiss - 0.2%

1 African - 0.1%

1 Brazilian - 0.1%

1 Jamaican - 0.1%

1 Portuguese - 0.1%

Total Identifiable Non-UK Sailors: 7.1%

[Fox]

Well, the four largest nationalities make logical sense. They were all part of the United Kingdom as of the Union Act in 1800. If you add them all together, you get 720 crew members from the UK. Out of the total of 883, that's 81.5%. I don't get the impression it was unusual for people to wind up in different navies, either. Several of the military sea-surgeons I studied were in foreign navies during their lifetimes.

Looking at the other nationalities by % (and ignoring the unknowns who could have been anything, including English):

22 American - 2.5%

7 Dutch - 0.8%

6 Maltese - 0.7%

4 French - 0.5%

4 Swedish - 0.5%

4 West Indian - 0.5%

2 Canadian - 0.2%

2 Danish - 0.2%

2 German - 0.2%

2 Indian - 0.2%

2 Norwegian - 0.2%

2 Swiss - 0.2%

1 African - 0.1%

1 Brazilian - 0.1%

1 Jamaican - 0.1%

1 Portuguese - 0.1%

Total Identifiable Non-UK Sailors: 7.1%

You could argue that the number of non-UK sailors was even smaller. Canadians were technically 'British' inasmuch as they were subjects of the British crown, not an independent nation, and the same might be true of the West Indians, depending where in the West Indies they were from. The Jamaican was certainly a 'British' subject. Americans present a problem because, in theory, American seamen were not liable to impressment but American citizenship was a little nebulous at times and it was a common and well-known ruse for British seamen to claim to be Americans to avoid impressment (and indeed, for British press-officers to impress American seamen on the grounds that they 'might' have been British). There were therefore a number of men listed as American who were actually British, and possibly a few men listed as British who were actually American, not to mention a few who could claim to be either.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I have read, sorry no source now , that large number of German immigrants moved to Colonies in gaop, before and after. I wonder that migth it actually be so that some of these men or women were considered "English" in documents as they lived in English colonies? Many colonist were called just English of the colony was English. And what about german pirates. There was certainly a few Germans in crews, of course it was really tiny number.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Said in Pirates and Buccaneers of the Atlantic Coast by Edward Rowe Snow. When there is written about Bellamy's pirates hanged in Boston in 1717 (thank to Mission for the hint)

"The (six) pirates were Simon Van Vorst, of New York; John Brown of Jamaica; Thomas Baker of Holland; Hendrick Quintor of Amsterdam; Peter Hoof of Sweden, and John Sheean of Nantes."

So lets look two English colonists, two Dutch*, a Swede and one Frenchman. Bellamy's crew was probably one of the most multinational crews at the time but this is still illustrative to a extent.

*I wonder that surprisingly many dutch appear in many places (not just this)

[Red John]

On the list quoted, I'd be tempted to say three Dutch - the Van Vorst from "New York" is probably from a family that was there when it was "New Amsterdam" or may be fully Dutch himself.

Also, on the German thing, in the English Colonies (esp. Pennsylvania) the German immigrants were often called "Dutch" which was a mispronunciation of "Deutsch" and after a few repeats folks thought it meant actual Dutch not German. The Pennsylvania "Dutch" were nearly all German. Same for other colonies to a lesser degree, excepting of course the colony of NY and the surrounding areas.

Sooo . . . methinks if anyone has a way-cool jaeger they really really want to use as part of their piratical persona . . . there you go ... just claim to be English Colonial "Dutch / Deutsch" and sail away with Bellamy or whomever . . .

[Swashbuckler 1700]

On the list quoted, I'd be tempted to say three Dutch - the Van Vorst from "New York" is probably from a family that was there when it was "New Amsterdam" or may be fully Dutch himself.

Also, on the German thing, in the English Colonies (esp. Pennsylvania) the German immigrants were often called "Dutch" which was a mispronunciation of "Deutsch" and after a few repeats folks thought it meant actual Dutch not German. The Pennsylvania "Dutch" were nearly all German. Same for other colonies to a lesser degree, excepting of course the colony of NY and the surrounding areas.

Sooo . . . methinks if anyone has a way-cool jaeger they really really want to use as part of their piratical persona . . . there you go ... just claim to be English Colonial "Dutch / Deutsch" and sail away with Bellamy or whomever . . .

That is Interesting.

Yeah Van Vorst sounds like a Dutch or perhaps German or French. However while Dutch and Germans might be messed up by others these two pirates were clearly from Holland....

[Frtiz]

I was searching for something completely different when I was cross-reading through Woodards The Republic of Pirates and just stumbled over the following lines: "Within hours (of capturing the Sultana), the pirates captured a second ship, a clumsy merchant vessel under a Captain Tosor, who had been sailing for Campeche under the protection of the Sultana's guns. Tosor's vessel was plundered and, because the pirates were running increasingly short of manpower, several of his men were forced into service. Tosor himself was allowed to proceed on his way to Campeche in his ship. One of Bellamy's crewmen, Simon Van Vorst, a twenty-four-year-old Dutchman born in the former Dutch city of New York, later recalled seeing many of the forced men "cry and express their grief" at their fate."

Most likely this is the same Simon Van Vorst, but he would still be English because Nieuw Amsterdam became New York in 1664. So it was English before Simon Van Vorst was born. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Besides, you don't happen to have a cool jaeger you could borrow my piratical persona?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Van Vorst was said to a Dutchman and his name tells that he was from Dutch family. I think there was many Dutch families in New York since I dare to claim that many families didn't move in 1664 just because the owner of the colony was changed (it was changed without a fight so there were no massacres of Dutch citizens done or anything like that). I think he might have good English skills thought because of his birth place.

But in any case while the English speaking men formed the overwhelming majority in the pirate crews the number of Dutch, Germans, Spanish, Swedes and especially French should be noted, while only few per-sets, we can still say that Gaop pirate crews were multinational in that scale and limits that were possible (pirate did not met many china-men etc. while raiding European shipping).

Edited January 8, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Interesting that it seems that Captain Russel who served pirate Commodore Low was originally a Portuguese, at least George Roberts wrote so in The four years voyages of capt. George Roberts. 1726. Well the real writer was perhaps Defoe's but the book is still quite a good source. Like Foxe said in this tread "Roberts' account shows a number of parallels with other historical sources, suggesting that if it is a work of fiction it's a very well researched one. There is little evidence in support of the otherwise unknown Roberts being the author, but no less evidence than there is for Defoe."

Here is the page about Russel http://books.google.fi/books?id=OWsBAAAAQAAJ&hl=fi&hl=fi&pg=PA29&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0Ja1mMUhsJCJjDTVaRWK6gYjnmxw&ci=87%2C31%2C803%2C1550&edge=0'

Also here there is more evidence to say that Africans worked as regional pilots. It shows also that pirates like Russel sometimes despised the Africans. I can see that equality among pirates abord ships was not so great as often implied. Also perhaps it was the pressure of being one of the few not Englishmen among a group that was formed mostly by English pirates that made Russel or John Lopez to pretend an Englishmen.

See his attitude towards the Africans:

Russel: "What! Do you think I will let a negro to pilot me! no no..."

http://books.google.fi/books?id=OWsBAAAAQAAJ&hl=fi&hl=fi&pg=PA36&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U32DAY_xFZM6BNYrnMkLPOTlPDScQ&ci=150%2C70%2C809%2C1530&edge=0

Edited February 21, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

List of HMS Victory's crew's nationalities in 1805. Think about it.... it was "English" navy after all.

" 515 English, 88 Irish, 67 Scottish, 50 Welsh, 1 African, 1 Brazilian, 2 Danish, 4 French, 2 Indian, 6 Maltese, 1 Portuguese, 2 Swiss, 22 American, 2 Canadian, 7 Dutch, 2 German, 1 Jamaican, 2 Norwegian, 4 Swedish, 4 West Indian, 48 Unknown."

oh and source http://dalyhistory.w...y-at-trafalgar/

Well, the four largest nationalities make logical sense. They were all part of the United Kingdom as of the Union Act in 1800. If you add them all together, you get 720 crew members from the UK. Out of the total of 883, that's 81.5%. I don't get the impression it was unusual for people to wind up in different navies, either. Several of the military sea-surgeons I studied were in foreign navies during their lifetimes.

Looking at the other nationalities by % (and ignoring the unknowns who could have been anything, including English):

22 American - 2.5%

7 Dutch - 0.8%

6 Maltese - 0.7%

4 French - 0.5%

4 Swedish - 0.5%

4 West Indian - 0.5%

2 Canadian - 0.2%

2 Danish - 0.2%

2 German - 0.2%

2 Indian - 0.2%

2 Norwegian - 0.2%

2 Swiss - 0.2%

1 African - 0.1%

1 Brazilian - 0.1%

1 Jamaican - 0.1%

1 Portuguese - 0.1%

Total Identifiable Non-UK Sailors: 7.1%

Interesting btw (getting to this topic again)

Note the practically similar numbers of non Uk pirates in Rederiker's study.

(in Rederiker's pirate study) Other (Dutch, French, Portuguese, Danish, Belgian, Swedish, African...) - 6.9%

So was piracy as multicultural business as later Nelson's navy?

In any case these numbers don't tell all. But they are clearly indicative so I would say that about 5-10% of pirates in Gaop were not from Britain or her colonies. So perhaps fever than sometimes implied by some historians....

Edited June 18, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Mission]

You know, this would probably be a whole area of research for someone. I suppose the make-up of a crew would depend upon the crew itself.

We tend to focus on the English pirates because we all read English and our primary sources are in English and are often about English pirates. (Plus the GAoP as we define it seems to have been a time where you had all these out-of-work pressed naval men and former privateers as you've pointed out in other threads. Like would attract like, if only to make communication easier, so it seems intuitive that English-speaking pirates would tend to connect with other English-speakers. But what of the corsairs, the South China Sea and Mediterranean pirates?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

You know, this would probably be a whole area of research for someone. I suppose the make-up of a crew would depend upon the crew itself.

We tend to focus on the English pirates because we all read English and our primary sources are in English and are often about English pirates. (Plus the GAoP as we define it seems to have been a time where you had all these out-of-work pressed naval men and former privateers as you've pointed out in other threads. Like would attract like, if only to make communication easier, so it seems intuitive that English-speaking pirates would tend to connect with other English-speakers. But what of the corsairs, the South China Sea and Mediterranean pirates?

Indeed true...

But now, here, we are talking about Gaop pirates which means westerns pirates of the late 17th and early 18th century.

And back to the topic about Gaop era:

In his book "Scourge of the Seas: Buccaneers, Pirates and Privateers" August Konstam states clearly referring to some period source:

"A number of Africans, including escaped plantation slaves as well as new arrivals, did succeed

in becoming pirates in their own right. One exaggerated Jamaican newspaper

article of 1725 reported bands of African and African-American pirates marauding

the Caribbean and eating the hearts of the white men they captured."

Edited June 19, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700