Jump to content

Peter the Grat's Salor outfit - specifically the hat.


IvanHenry

Recommended Posts

I have been working on developing this sailor's outfit that Peter The Great brought back from eastern Europe in the early 1700s. After chatting with a few people and checking my resources, I found out that his hat was not straw like I first thought. It appears to be a brimmed knit cap. I found a source and now have a great example of this hat. However, I am not certain that I have seen any references of this hat in application. Any help?

collage_lb_image_page37_177_1.png

Edited by IvanHenry
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 57
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hmmm what about looking up styles of hats that are specifically Russian.... maybe that may have influenced the outcome of that particular hat? I know Peter the Great was trying to emulate western styles, but perhaps he had Russian craftsmen producing that particular piece...might be a place to look....


"I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers

Crewe of the Archangel

http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel#

http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ah, in that case, blows my theory right out of the water.... :o


"I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers

Crewe of the Archangel

http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel#

http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

AN00353778_001_l.jpg

Seated

AN00914438_001_l.jpg

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


ETFox.co.uk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think too that that he brought this outfit back from Europe. I think the outfit is originally from England or Holland.

These are likely to be PtGs

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~1847~2850007:-Edward-Low-shoots-a-man-?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=w4s:/what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=3&trs=22

these can well be

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~1845~2850005:Anne-Bonny-op-Jamaica-Gevangen-?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=w4s:/what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=2&trs=22

same with this

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~1844~2850004:Mary-Read-op-Jamaica-in-de-Gevangen?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=w4s:/what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=8&trs=22

and this is

AN00914614_001_l.jpg

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think too that that he brought this outfit back from Europe. I think the outfit is originally from England or Holland.

These are likely to be PtGs

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=3&trs=22

these can well be

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=2&trs=22

same with this

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=8&trs=22

and this is

AN00914614_001_l.jpg

PTGs??? What dat?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Peter The Great (hats)

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


ETFox.co.uk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Similar titfers seem to be a Cloggy thing, especially religeous types in the first half of the 18thC, according to Troost at least.

The image code for these pics makes the board throw a hissy fit (I'm not having THAT here) so I'll do them as links

At the back of the crowd next to the building watching the raggedy man speaking

http://resolver.kb.n...0193&size=large

Sat in black under the mooning arse

http://www.rijksmuse...sp?id=SK-A-4089

Characters from a Dutch play

http://resolver.kb.n...0180&size=large

Ditto

http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=urn:gvn:MAU01:0181&size=large

Different play this time it's Doctors and 'piss tasters'

http://resolver.kb.n...0191&size=large

All 1730s and early 40s by Cornelis Troost, The Netherlands version of Hogarth.

Edited by Grymm

Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

Foxe

"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707


ETFox.co.uk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Foxe seems to be quite right

Daniel Defoe, in his 1712 Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain,described as Monmouth caps being worn (or sold) predominantly by Dutch seamen.

Hmm. I remember that one fellow (David. R) said once that it is illustrator's error in Dutch GHoP that Bonny and Read have Dutch "plug hats" ( meaning PTGs) but it seems that they were both Englishmen's and Dutchmen' style. ( see my posts before) Also looking pictures of Dutch GHoP they seems that Dutch had information about Englishmen since there is lots of trousers with pirates while they were not Dutch sailor's fashion.

It seems that there were many styles of wool caps in Gaop including classic Monmouths and PTGs.

I was wondering is that hat in this picture from 1747 classic Monmouth or PTG since there is not large difference between those two.

p-8772_crop_grey.jpg

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hmm the fellow with the cat, somewhat hard to tell from the angle, but the main character's hat certainly does not look like a cocked hat worn backward. The fellow on the oars, now his hat obviously looks like a backward cocked hat.


"I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers

Crewe of the Archangel

http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel#

http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hmm the fellow with the cat, somewhat hard to tell from the angle, but the main character's hat certainly does not look like a cocked hat worn backward. The fellow on the oars, now his hat obviously looks like a backward cocked hat.

Umm main character’s hat does look like tricorn why not it has 3 sides and all ( :huh: it is actually

really similar than in one admiral in one picture.....)

BTW

Does the man who point hanged man has tricorn or fur hat i mean hat like this http://www.forumrare...C10DXFFRQ_2.jpg

I think that that man with cat has classic Monmouth....

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hmm the fellow with the cat, somewhat hard to tell from the angle, but the main character's hat certainly does not look like a cocked hat worn backward. The fellow on the oars, now his hat obviously looks like a backward cocked hat.

Umm main character’s hat does look like tricorn why not it has 3 sides and all ( :huh: it is actually

really similar than in one admiral in one picture.....)

Hmmm in all honesty, t'is hard to tell if there are three corners on the main character's hat, although, granted maybe he's wearing it sidewise....


"I being shot through the left cheek, the bullet striking away great part of my upper jaw, and several teeth which dropt down the deck where I fell... I was forced to write what I would say to prevent the loss of blood, and because of the pain I suffered by speaking."~ Woodes Rogers

Crewe of the Archangel

http://jcsterlingcptarchang.wix.com/creweofthearchangel#

http://creweofthearchangel.wordpress.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Foxe seems to be quite right

Daniel Defoe, in his 1712 Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain,described as Monmouth caps being worn (or sold) predominantly by Dutch seamen.

Hmm. I remember that one fellow (David. R) said once that it is illustrator's error in Dutch GHoP that Bonny and Read have Dutch "plug hats" ( meaning PTGs) but it seems that they were both Englishmen's and Dutchmen' style. ( see my posts before) Also looking pictures of Dutch GHoP they seems that Dutch had information about Englishmen since there is lots of trousers with pirates while they were not Dutch sailor's fashion.

It seems that there were many styles of wool caps in Gaop including classic Monmouths and PTGs.

I was wondering is that hat in this picture from 1747 classic Monmouth or PTG since there is not large difference between those two.

p-8772_crop_grey.jpg

I think that cap is the classic Monmouth cap like this one

or many other ( google there is lots of pictures)

MonmouthCap.jpg

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

You are not saying that no other woolen style were used than PTGs? yes? I wonder what many " wool" caps mentioned in period description are Classic Monmouths, PTGs or something else( likely all of these). hmmm.... one Interesting quote from 1699 slop shop's inventory and it reflects sailors headwear quite well "36 capps of severall sorts" ...

And Grymm I know that that there is only one genuine Monmouth. ;)

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

You are not saying that no other woolen style were used than PTGs? yes? I wonder what many " wool" caps mentioned in period description are Classic Monmouths, PTGs or something else( likely all of these). hmmm.... one Interesting quote from 1699 slop shop's inventory and it reflects sailors headwear quite well "36 capps of severall sorts" ...

And Grymm I know that that there is only one genuine Monmouth. ;)

I think that there's as many types of knitted caps as there were knitters.

The is it a Monmouth or a PtG is a modern view/arguement, we digital age types(20th/21stC people) love to put things in 'boxes' nearly as much as we love a creation myth (Taters were introduced by ****on this date etc), both make for good books and telly, but the reality is usually far more blurred and confused.

Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

You are not saying that no other woolen style were used than PTGs? yes? I wonder what many " wool" caps mentioned in period description are Classic Monmouths, PTGs or something else( likely all of these). hmmm.... one Interesting quote from 1699 slop shop's inventory and it reflects sailors headwear quite well "36 capps of severall sorts" ...

And Grymm I know that that there is only one genuine Monmouth. ;)

I think that there's as many types of knitted caps as there were knitters.

The is it a Monmouth or a PtG is a modern view/arguement, we digital age types(20th/21stC people) love to put things in 'boxes' nearly as much as we love a creation myth (Taters were introduced by ****on this date etc), both make for good books and telly, but the reality is usually far more blurred and confused.

Indeed. were I live I see dozens of different caps on winter and many of them are still hand knitted. It seems that that was the case in gaop also.

I wonder what these caps are?

from late 17th century

85796168.jpg

Buccaneers+1682.jpg

Edited by Swashbuckler 1700

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is nice Monmouth from early 17th C. Is there hints of PTGs?

Adriaen+Brouwer+De+roker.jpg

Btw it seems that there were many different styles of PtGs. Some were more round hat like ( e.g. the original hat of Peter The Great (the man)) and some more

sloppy like what those two jolly Dutchmen have. If looking repros there is similar differences between PTGs.

this is bit more round hat like

Peter-010-600.jpg

or looser more cap like

DSCF1076.JPG

"I have not yet Begun To Fight!"
John Paul Jones

flag-christopher-condent.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...
&ev=PageView&cd%5Bitem_id%5D=18701&cd%5Bitem_name%5D=Peter+the+Grat%27s+Salor+outfit+-+specifically+the+hat.&cd%5Bitem_type%5D=topic&cd%5Bcategory_name%5D=Captain Twill"/>