Peter the Grat's Salor outfit - specifically the hat.

[IvanHenry]

I have been working on developing this sailor's outfit that Peter The Great brought back from eastern Europe in the early 1700s. After chatting with a few people and checking my resources, I found out that his hat was not straw like I first thought. It appears to be a brimmed knit cap. I found a source and now have a great example of this hat. However, I am not certain that I have seen any references of this hat in application. Any help?

Edited April 24, 2012 by IvanHenry

[IvanHenry]

Possibly?

Possibly?

Edited April 24, 2012 by IvanHenry

[Capt. Sterling]

Hmmm what about looking up styles of hats that are specifically Russian.... maybe that may have influenced the outcome of that particular hat? I know Peter the Great was trying to emulate western styles, but perhaps he had Russian craftsmen producing that particular piece...might be a place to look....

[IvanHenry]

Thanks Sterling. That's a good theory. From what I understand, he brought this outfit back from Europe. I could be wrong though.

[Capt. Sterling]

ah, in that case, blows my theory right out of the water....

[Fox]

Seated

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I think too that that he brought this outfit back from Europe. I think the outfit is originally from England or Holland.

These are likely to be PtGs

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~1847~2850007:-Edward-Low-shoots-a-man-?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=w4s:/what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=3&trs=22

these can well be

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~1845~2850005:Anne-Bonny-op-Jamaica-Gevangen-?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=w4s:/what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=2&trs=22

same with this

http://jcb.lunaimaging.com/luna/servlet/detail/JCB~1~1~1844~2850004:Mary-Read-op-Jamaica-in-de-Gevangen?sort=Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle&qvq=w4s:/what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=8&trs=22

and this is

[IvanHenry]

Seated

There it is! I forgot about the dancing Dutch Sailor! That's it exactly! I like how he has it attached with atwo buttons? and a tie of some sort. I think I'll do that with mine. Thanks for the reminder!

[IvanHenry]

I think too that that he brought this outfit back from Europe. I think the outfit is originally from England or Holland.

These are likely to be PtGs

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=3&trs=22

these can well be

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=2&trs=22

same with this

http://jcb.lunaimagi.../what/Artifacts, industry, and human activities/Pirates/where/[Amsterdam];sort:Normalized_date%2CCreators%2CPublisher%2CTitle;lc:JCB~1~1,JCBBOOKS~1~1,JCBMAPS~1~1,JCBMAPS~2~2&mi=8&trs=22

and this is

PTGs??? What dat?

[Fox]

Peter The Great (hats)

[Grymm]

Similar titfers seem to be a Cloggy thing, especially religeous types in the first half of the 18thC, according to Troost at least.

The image code for these pics makes the board throw a hissy fit (I'm not having THAT here) so I'll do them as links

At the back of the crowd next to the building watching the raggedy man speaking

http://resolver.kb.n...0193&size=large

Sat in black under the mooning arse

http://www.rijksmuse...sp?id=SK-A-4089

Characters from a Dutch play

http://resolver.kb.n...0180&size=large

Ditto

http://resolver.kb.nl/resolve?urn=urn:gvn:MAU01:0181&size=large

Different play this time it's Doctors and 'piss tasters'

http://resolver.kb.n...0191&size=large

All 1730s and early 40s by Cornelis Troost, The Netherlands version of Hogarth.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Grymm

[Fox]

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Foxe seems to be quite right

Daniel Defoe, in his 1712 Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain,described as Monmouth caps being worn (or sold) predominantly by Dutch seamen.

Hmm. I remember that one fellow (David. R) said once that it is illustrator's error in Dutch GHoP that Bonny and Read have Dutch "plug hats" ( meaning PTGs) but it seems that they were both Englishmen's and Dutchmen' style. ( see my posts before) Also looking pictures of Dutch GHoP they seems that Dutch had information about Englishmen since there is lots of trousers with pirates while they were not Dutch sailor's fashion.

It seems that there were many styles of wool caps in Gaop including classic Monmouths and PTGs.

I was wondering is that hat in this picture from 1747 classic Monmouth or PTG since there is not large difference between those two.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Capt. Sterling]

hmm the fellow with the cat, somewhat hard to tell from the angle, but the main character's hat certainly does not look like a cocked hat worn backward. The fellow on the oars, now his hat obviously looks like a backward cocked hat.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

hmm the fellow with the cat, somewhat hard to tell from the angle, but the main character's hat certainly does not look like a cocked hat worn backward. The fellow on the oars, now his hat obviously looks like a backward cocked hat.

Umm main character’s hat does look like tricorn why not it has 3 sides and all ( it is actually

really similar than in one admiral in one picture.....)

BTW

Does the man who point hanged man has tricorn or fur hat i mean hat like this http://www.forumrare...C10DXFFRQ_2.jpg

I think that that man with cat has classic Monmouth....

Edited April 25, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Capt. Sterling]

hmm the fellow with the cat, somewhat hard to tell from the angle, but the main character's hat certainly does not look like a cocked hat worn backward. The fellow on the oars, now his hat obviously looks like a backward cocked hat.

Umm main character’s hat does look like tricorn why not it has 3 sides and all ( it is actually

really similar than in one admiral in one picture.....)

Hmmm in all honesty, t'is hard to tell if there are three corners on the main character's hat, although, granted maybe he's wearing it sidewise....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Believed to be a painting of Peter the Great (the person)

But it seems that it was made by artist who did not saw him at the shipyards....

Also he has nice waistcoat/ jacket but hat is the main thing now....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Foxe seems to be quite right

Daniel Defoe, in his 1712 Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain,described as Monmouth caps being worn (or sold) predominantly by Dutch seamen.

Hmm. I remember that one fellow (David. R) said once that it is illustrator's error in Dutch GHoP that Bonny and Read have Dutch "plug hats" ( meaning PTGs) but it seems that they were both Englishmen's and Dutchmen' style. ( see my posts before) Also looking pictures of Dutch GHoP they seems that Dutch had information about Englishmen since there is lots of trousers with pirates while they were not Dutch sailor's fashion.

It seems that there were many styles of wool caps in Gaop including classic Monmouths and PTGs.

I was wondering is that hat in this picture from 1747 classic Monmouth or PTG since there is not large difference between those two.

I think that cap is the classic Monmouth cap like this one

or many other ( google there is lots of pictures)

Edited April 25, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Ivan Henry aka Moose]

Believed to be a painting of Peter the Great (the person)

But it seems that it was made by artist who did not saw him at the shipyards....

Also he has nice waistcoat/ jacket but hat is the main thing now....

Yeah i have seen this. Though I don't think this cap is knit. I do dig his jacket!

[Grymm]

THE Monmouth Cap from Monmouth Museum and the one virtually all repros are based on

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

You are not saying that no other woolen style were used than PTGs? yes? I wonder what many " wool" caps mentioned in period description are Classic Monmouths, PTGs or something else( likely all of these). hmmm.... one Interesting quote from 1699 slop shop's inventory and it reflects sailors headwear quite well "36 capps of severall sorts" ...

And Grymm I know that that there is only one genuine Monmouth.

[Grymm]

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

You are not saying that no other woolen style were used than PTGs? yes? I wonder what many " wool" caps mentioned in period description are Classic Monmouths, PTGs or something else( likely all of these). hmmm.... one Interesting quote from 1699 slop shop's inventory and it reflects sailors headwear quite well "36 capps of severall sorts" ...

And Grymm I know that that there is only one genuine Monmouth.

I think that there's as many types of knitted caps as there were knitters.

The is it a Monmouth or a PtG is a modern view/arguement, we digital age types(20th/21stC people) love to put things in 'boxes' nearly as much as we love a creation myth (Taters were introduced by ****on this date etc), both make for good books and telly, but the reality is usually far more blurred and confused.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Nice one Grymm.

Some years ago Kirsty Buckland told me that the story behind the 'original' Peter the Great hat is that the man himself travelled Europe and spent some time in England, where he was particularly interested in the workings of the navy and the dockyards (that much is true, he virtually bankrupted the poor people who had the 'honour' of putting him up for a night or two, John Evelyn mentions it in his diary). Whilst hanging out with sailors he admired the hats that they were all wearing and, on his return journey, bought himself one while passing through the Netherlands. Where Ms. Buckland got that information from I can't say, but it was probably from a reputable source, and it certainly fits the known facts.

That being the case, the one in the Hermitage museum was Dutch made, but the same style as was popular with sailors in England in the 1690s. Given the vagueness of definitions, it is possible, perhaps even likely, that the 'monmouth' caps mentioned in the slop contracts from the late 17th century were of the Peter the Great style, especially bearing in mind that the brim is the only difference between what we would normally call a monmouth cap and the PtG hat, and that our modern definition was largely standardised by Kirsty Buckland in the 1970s, based on a single 16th century example in the Monmouth museum.

Of the two pictures I posted earlier, the dancing Dutch sailor is Dutch, but the seated figure in the first picture is an English sailor - FWIW, the figure on the left in a similar hat is a Dutch sailor. The evidence therefore suggests that the style was popular in both the English and Dutch maritime cultures, which further tends to support the validity of the tale as told by Ms. Buckland.

You are not saying that no other woolen style were used than PTGs? yes? I wonder what many " wool" caps mentioned in period description are Classic Monmouths, PTGs or something else( likely all of these). hmmm.... one Interesting quote from 1699 slop shop's inventory and it reflects sailors headwear quite well "36 capps of severall sorts" ...

And Grymm I know that that there is only one genuine Monmouth.

I think that there's as many types of knitted caps as there were knitters.

The is it a Monmouth or a PtG is a modern view/arguement, we digital age types(20th/21stC people) love to put things in 'boxes' nearly as much as we love a creation myth (Taters were introduced by ****on this date etc), both make for good books and telly, but the reality is usually far more blurred and confused.

Indeed. were I live I see dozens of different caps on winter and many of them are still hand knitted. It seems that that was the case in gaop also.

I wonder what these caps are?

from late 17th century

Edited April 26, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Here is nice Monmouth from early 17th C. Is there hints of PTGs?

Btw it seems that there were many different styles of PtGs. Some were more round hat like ( e.g. the original hat of Peter The Great (the man)) and some more

sloppy like what those two jolly Dutchmen have. If looking repros there is similar differences between PTGs.

this is bit more round hat like

or looser more cap like

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Since for some reason I cannot edit my latest post I need to put these pictures here.

Following pictures are dutch sailor from 1695-1730 so clearly from Gaop. Note large number of PTGs