waistcoats with sleeves or without ?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

So were Gaop waistcoats more often were without sleeves or with them?

I am speaking of common men and sailors what would be the case

I don't need patterns or anything but I was just wondering this as an historical issue.

I have found more pictures of them with sleeves ones

like here

[IvanHenry]

I don't have a resource at hand, but I wold say based on what i have seen, both were worn.

[Mission]

I wear one, but my costume is based on a lower class gentleman's clothing, not a sailor's and I don't know enough to respond beyond that. I trust my tailor implicitly, however. (Except when I insist he do something for me that wouldn't be correct like adding inside pockets to a coat. Then any error is entirely my own.)

[Grymm]

Then there's the do you call it a sleeved waistcoat or is it working man's jacket question

Sleeved waistcoat 1710-20 in the V&A and a yellow silk waistcoat from 1730s

Another from the 1730's with embroidery designed to peep out from the coat sleeves

dancing bloke in Jacket, I think (but then it's prob'ly more of a ven diagram than seperate boxes)

[Swashbuckler 1700]

This one hould be 1710- 20s waistcoat. My theory is that sleeved ones were used when coat wasn't and sleevless when coat was on....

on from circa 1715

one c. 1750

This is going too late but ine from 1760s

another from same time

but this one is circa 1720

Still there is not much pictures of common men's or sailors' waistcoat

It seems that sleeved ones were little more popular in Gaop......

Edited April 20, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Grymm]

This one hould be 1710- 20s waistcoat. My theory is that sleeved ones were used when coat wasn't and sleevless when coat was on....

Some and some, the one above is made to be worn under a coat which is why the embroidery stops at the shoulder and forearm, no point tarting it up if no-one will see it.

Some waistcoats it's even more noticeable in that the back section, which is covered by the coat, is of cheaper cloth and the more expensive fancy bits at the front on show.

Often the lining is similar, more 'spensive inside fronts and 'tails' cheaper flannel at the back and inside sleeves.

[Fox]

Then there's the do you call it a sleeved waistcoat or is it working man's jacket question

FWIW, having made and worn the garments mentioned in the Admiralty slop contracts, I am 99% certain that the 'waistcoats' of Welsh red or ticking were the 'sailors' jackets' that we identify in pictoral evidence (though I acknowledge that several pictures show another garment under the 'jacket'). The grey kersey jacket comes out longer (based on the 1730s measurements) than the jackets shown in the pictures and is a superb warm and waterproof overcoat rather than every day wear.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Then there's the do you call it a sleeved waistcoat or is it working man's jacket question

FWIW, having made and worn the garments mentioned in the Admiralty slop contracts, I am 99% certain that the 'waistcoats' of Welsh red or ticking were the 'sailors' jackets' that we identify in pictoral evidence (though I acknowledge that several pictures show another garment under the 'jacket'). The grey kersey jacket comes out longer (based on the 1730s measurements) than the jackets shown in the pictures and is a superb warm and waterproof. rather than every day wear.

What about striped waistcoats? or did you mean that ticking ones as striped waistcoats.

I would like some pictures please?

Actually those jackets in this book ( oh now this is here also ...oh well ).

They look rather heavy and those back buttons create impression of coats.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[jendobyns]

The man in the front with his back to you on the left looks like he is wearing a coat. The man with his back to you front right, with the belt around his red garment, appears to be wearing a sleeved waistcoat or jacket. There is a noticeable difference between the two styles. The man in blue also appears to be wearing a coat. There appear to be ticking stripes breeches on a couple of the men. But this does not appear to be a period source.

There are stripes, and there are ticking stripes. Whatever they are, they will be woven into the fabric, not printed or embroidered. Ticking was often used for durable things like mattress covers and bolsters.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

The man in the front with his back to you on the left looks like he is wearing a coat. The man with his back to you front right, with the belt around his red garment, appears to be wearing a sleeved waistcoat or jacket. There is a noticeable difference between the two styles. The man in blue also appears to be wearing a coat. There appear to be ticking stripes breeches on a couple of the men. But this does not appear to be a period source.

There are stripes, and there are ticking stripes. Whatever they are, they will be woven into the fabric, not printed or embroidered. Ticking was often used for durable things like mattress covers and bolsters.

Umm I did not get what you mean. if you mean that striped breeches were not used then what is this from slop clothing: " Striped Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each ".

Sorry but English glossary of sewing is not my strong skill...

Edited April 20, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Jas. Hook]

Umm I did not get what you mean. if you mean that striped breeches were not used then what is this from slop clothing: "Striped Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each ".

That description it sounds more like a jacket or a vest rather than breeches. Sixteen buttons, white linen lining, button holes in black and two pockets.... Hummmmm

Jas. Hook

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Umm I did not get what you mean. if you mean that striped breeches were not used then what is this from slop clothing: "Striped Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each ".

That description it sounds more like a jacket or a vest rather than breeches. Sixteen buttons, white linen lining, button holes in black and two pockets.... Hummmmm

Jas. Hook

First of all it seems that pockets were popular in breeches same with buttons . Also this is from 1706 Slop contract so there is no doubt.

This is what waistcoat in it " Striped Ticken Waist Coats of proper lengths, to be one Yard in length at least, with Eighteen Black Buttons, the Holes Stitched with Black Thread lined with White linen and two White Linnen Pockets, at the Rate of Seven Shillings each "

Ah there is 3 different breeches in 1706 Slop contract 1. " Striped Shagg Breeches lin'd with Linnen, with three Leather Pockets, and fourteen white Tinn Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with white Thread, at the Rate of Tenn Shillings and Sixpence each

" 2. "Striped Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each " 3. Red Kersey Breeches lined with Linnen, with three Leather Pockets, and thirteen white Tinn Buttons, the Button Holes stitched with white Thread, at the Rate of Five Shillings and Sixpence each

Swashbuckler 1700

Edited April 20, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[jendobyns]

The man in the front with his back to you on the left looks like he is wearing a coat. The man with his back to you front right, with the belt around his red garment, appears to be wearing a sleeved waistcoat or jacket. There is a noticeable difference between the two styles. The man in blue also appears to be wearing a coat. There appear to be ticking stripes breeches on a couple of the men. But this does not appear to be a period source.

There are stripes, and there are ticking stripes. Whatever they are, they will be woven into the fabric, not printed or embroidered. Ticking was often used for durable things like mattress covers and bolsters.

Umm I did not get what you mean. if you mean that striped breeches were not used then what is this from slop clothing: " Striped Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each ".

Sorry but English glossary of sewing is not my strong skill...

No, I meant that the painting did not appear to be a period source. If it is not art work from the period, and you're trying to get a period accurate look, this is not a reliable source. I was not disputing the use of ticking in clothing.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

The man in the front with his back to you on the left looks like he is wearing a coat. The man with his back to you front right, with the belt around his red garment, appears to be wearing a sleeved waistcoat or jacket. There is a noticeable difference between the two styles. The man in blue also appears to be wearing a coat. There appear to be ticking stripes breeches on a couple of the men. But this does not appear to be a period source.

There are stripes, and there are ticking stripes. Whatever they are, they will be woven into the fabric, not printed or embroidered. Ticking was often used for durable things like mattress covers and bolsters.

Umm I did not get what you mean. if you mean that striped breeches were not used then what is this from slop clothing: " Striped Ticken Breeches of proper lengthes, lined with white linen, and two linen Pockets, with Sixteen Black Buttons, the Button Holes stiched with Black Thread, at the rate of five Shillings each ".

Sorry but English glossary of sewing is not my strong skill...

No, I meant that the painting did not appear to be a period source. If it is not art work from the period, and you're trying to get a period accurate look, this is not a reliable source. I was not disputing the use of ticking in clothing.

It is not indeed from the period and it is not too good. It is from new book from 2011.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Looking old paintings to see ships, ports and sailors I have found one early 18th century picture that features an ordinary sailor or a fisherman having a sleeveless waistcoat.

There a man with blue waistcoat and white shirt in rigth corner

http://collections.r...ects/12494.html

[Frtiz]

FWIW, having made and worn the garments mentioned in the Admiralty slop contracts, I am 99% certain that the 'waistcoats' of Welsh red or ticking were the 'sailors' jackets' that we identify in pictoral evidence (though I acknowledge that several pictures show another garment under the 'jacket'). The grey kersey jacket comes out longer (based on the 1730s measurements) than the jackets shown in the pictures and is a superb warm and waterproof overcoat rather than every day wear.

When the waistcoats looked like the sailors or working men jackets I wonder what the grey kersey jackets would have looked like. Would they resemble frockcoats or the outermost garment of "the sea gunner"?

http://pic100.pictur...55/85757518.jpg

The 15 buttons mentioned in the slop contracts do not match such a style of coat, I think.

Could anyone give me a hint were to learn more about these 1730s measurements?

[Frtiz]

Sorry for bumping this thread. I am eager to start completing my kit. So any help would be very much appreceated.

[jendobyns]

Fritz,

Contact Neal Hurst, Tailor of Colonial Williamsburg. While CW is oop, the tailors also supply historic clothing for the Jamestown Settlement, and Neal or Mark Hutter can pretty much tell you anything you want to know for at least 200 years worth of men's clothing.

Here's a link to Neal's website. He is also on FB. http://nhursttailor.com/N.Hurst_Tailor/Welcome.html

Good luck!

[Frtiz]

Thanks for the link jendobyns. After looking at their gallery I'm actually stunned.

[jendobyns]

Stunned? Interesting choice of words. At the quality of workmanship or sticker shock?

[Frtiz]

It's not sticker shock. Although I know tailors that do a whole uniform for 700 $ and not just the coat I think the prices are fair. Stunned is just what I feel comparing the fit of their clothes with the fit of my own crations. But I think a sloppy fit is okay for slops.