Dressing like a period female pirate

[Ransom]

Humm...Now, how do I adapt one of those to a female pirate costume? I kinda like a combo of English and Dutch, especially Dutch boat hand.

Very cool pics, Captain.

Note: This topic was seperated from another, but the pictures being referrred to didn't get transfered with it. They are re-posted further along the thread.

[kass]

Humm...Now, how do I adapt one of those to a female pirate costume? I kinda like a combo of English and Dutch, especially Dutch boat hand.

Very cool pics, Captain.

You'd really be better served by basing your costume on the pictures of Bonny and Read, the only two known female pirates in the GAoP...

[Aurore Devareaux]

Might I go so far as to interject. It seems to me that one should not have to limit their "portrayal" to the dictates of Bonny, nor that of Read. Though trial records state that both were dressed in male adornments, why should one have to base their clothing on etchings or woodcuts that are, like as not, just an artist's concept.

Please correct me if I am wrong in this, but, if the afore mentioned were dressed as men, then their choice of adornments would fall under the dictates of what was common to Mariners....Be they English, Dutch, French, etc, etc. The whole stigma regarding "pirates dress this way" has always been of great irritation to me, being the fact that they were Mariners on the overall, (those not skilled included, of course). Therfore, there is no special dress code to the adornments of "pyratical wear" outside of those laid down by the common form of cladding worn by seafarers in general.

Being that is the case, I would think it rather presumptuous to say that one would have to base their kit on Bonny or Read to be correct. And it would not be impossible for one to gain clothing from various points of the compass by way of thievery, purchase, trade, and so forth. As long as the adornments are of proper circa and reflect what was known amongst Mariners, then one would be well within their boundries no matter how they choose to mix and match clothing origin.

To assume that those Bonny and Read etchings are accurate, is to say the coronation of the Sun King painted around 1701 is accurate, as well.

Louis XIV succeeded his father in 1643....at the age of five. Tell me the artist in question did not take some liberties.

Just my francs duex.....

[Red Cat Jenny]

1) I agree the English Admiral looks like he could turn Pirate without a problem, he seems to be saying "and THAT was just for breakfast!"--------------

2)I am inclined to agree with Aurore.

I think as long as the items are period or (older - within reason - who doesn't have a 5 year old item in their closet?) one could assume any combination of clothing would be possible.

It could come from sailors on ships from all reaches of the world if those ships were taken, or from any ports sacked and any thing traded or gotten along the way. I would think since many fell on hard times, they would grab whatever they could to cover themselves.

From the other point of view, there would have to be some aspects of dress that could be assumed if the person were not a novice to sailing. One would assume from experience and example there would be certain items of clothing desirable or advantageous to life at sea. So this could lead you to guess at certain basic articles. Also, if these women wanted to blend, you could speculate that they would have done their best to dress as similarly to their peers as possible. Anything outlandish or at least very different might stand out to disadvantage.

That said, being the individuals that they were, and obiously not afraid, this might not apply.

I figure "think like a pirate/privateer - dress like you live the actual life with those things that would be available to you if this were true. If you feel authentic, you look more authentic. But that is just my most humble opine.

[kass]

Hey, it doesn't matter to me if you don't want to do an authentic portrayal of female pirates. But since you posted in Twill, I thought that's what you were interested in.

Aurore and Jenny, if you substitute the words "bucket boots" or "crossbow" or anything else we know seaman didn't use into your arguments, perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at. You're justifying what you want to do by saying, "Well they could have had it." And that's not documentation.

For example, we know the Chinese were drinking tea from time immemorial. And Marco Polo visited China in the 13th century. But somehow there wasn't any tea brought back with him. Matter of fact, the West didn't start drinking tea until the mid-17th century. That's 400 years -- as long as it's been since the settlement of Jamestown!

That's why the "I'm a pirate and I stole it" or "I've travelled the world and brought these things back" argument doesn't hold water.

But as I said, if you're not interested in an authentic portrayal, then this is moot.

[Patrick Hand]

That's why the "I'm a pirate and I stole it"

But I use that all 'line" all the time..... It's just that the clothing that I stole, is better quality, or newer, or cleaner versions of sailors clothing.....

A fancy justicorp, silver shoe buckles and even bucket boots are loot.... they are useless on a ship, so they would get sold.......

A fun note on Bonny and Read... The pictures show women, wearing men's clothing... I was looking at some of the details of the clothing in the picture...

So is it cross dressing for a man to wear a copy of clothing worn by women dressing as men?

[kass]

Nope. I would say that was entirely justifiable, Pat. I don't think Bonny and Read specially constructed their own clothes. They would have bought them from the Slop Shop or second-hand like the rest of the men. In fact, Johnson's illustrations of Bonny and Read are the best depictions we have of common MALE sailor's clothing in the GAoP.

[Red Cat Jenny]

Aurore and Jenny, if you substitute the words "bucket boots" or "crossbow" or anything else we know seaman didn't use into your arguments, perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at. You're justifying what you want to do by saying, "Well they could have had it." And that's not documentation.

Kass, I agree with you about not adding "non period items" as I stated "dress like you live the actual life with those things that would be available to you " This gives I think an opportunity to immerse yourself in the "providing for yourself" part of things and perhaps better understand, or if you're real lucky discover a deeper understanding of what it may really have been like.

I wasn't talking a hook, or big boots etc.

Yes, I like the boots - but I wasn't talking about em here. I like the shoes too! I was more agreeing with the "Don't anchor yourself to what isn't necesarily fact" opinion about drawings. Actual artifacts and written info are one thing. An artist's illustration may not always be true unless it is backed up somewhere.

However, your educated input is always appreciated. You go to a great deal of effort and that's admirable. But ye don't need me ta tell ye that

[Fox]

The real difficulty and danger with the "I stole it" and "sailors travelled the world so they could have had lots of different things" arguments is that you've got to differentiate between what someone could have had, and what they were likely to have had.

For example, fashion was as important in the 18thC as it is today - perhaps more so. People dressed in the way they knew, the way their contemporaries dressed. Styles changed over time, but they changed slowly. People who wore unsual things stood out, and nobody likes to stand out. There were plenty of Anglo-American pirates in the Indian Ocean, but that doesn't mean that wearing a sarong is accurate.

Authenticity means different things to different people I suppose, but to me at least it means going with what can be shown to have been the case. If we look deep enough in the records we find plenty of common variations, so it's not like being "authentic" is particularly limiting. When I can't find any direct evidnence for some part of my kit I will speculate (in an educated way I hope), to get something that should be right, or very close to right. But I don't call it authentic, because it isn't.

So, if you're looking for authentic female pirate gear of the GAoP then the answer is look at Bonny and Read and possibly Catherine Lincken* of the Royal Navy, because they are the only examples from the right period. What do we know about them? They generally wore either normal sailors' clothes (in battle) or normal women's clothes (the rest of the time). So, authentic female pirate gear is... authentic sailor gear or authentic female gear.

The answer to the question "how do I adapt one of those to a female pirate costume?" (assuming that authenticity is an issue, since this is TWILL) is that you don't adapt it.

Of course, the real issue with authentic female pirate outfits is that there just weren't that many female pirates in the GAoP. But that's another thread!

*The big difference between Bonny, Read, and Lincken is the issue of disguise. Bonny never appears to have disguised herself on a regular basis, Read did disguise herself at first, but when it became known she was a woman she made no atempt to hide the fact, and Lincken disguised herself throughout her seagoing career.

[kass]

Actual artifacts and written info are one thing. An artist's illustration may not always be true unless it is backed up somewhere.

Now you're onto something, Jenny! Good show!

I do think that it's a little stifling to limit all female sailing garb to just two examples. In theory, if women copied men's dress, then any picture/painting of men sailors of the proper time frame could be used as an example of proper sailing attire.

I think you're definitely moving in a good direction, Aurore. Which is why I'm going to push you a little farther.

The simple fact remains that women didn't copy men's dress. Three women disguised themselves as men aboard ship. That's three (well two -- Lincken wasn't a pirate) women out of thousands of male pirates in this period. And as Foxe states, even they didn't wear men's clothes all the time -- or even most of the time.

Portraying a person from history is by definition stifling to the creative personality. You have fewer choices because you are choosing to do something they did, not something you would have done in their place.

The biggest problem with this mode of thinking is that we are trying to put ourselves into the mindset of people from 300 years ago. And the only way to make the kinds of choices that they would have made is to make choices that we know they did make. If you see what I mean...

Which is really funny to hear myself say because in real life, I'm far from conservative in my dress!

[CrazyCholeBlack]

Say! can we split this "women's stuff" off into a thread or its own and keep it going? For once I have not only an opinion, but can remember the facts to at least participate in the conversation (however briefly)!

Great pictures Captain Sterling. Now what does that one fellow have hanging out of his glass?

[Ransom]

Actual artifacts and written info are one thing. An artist's illustration may not always be true unless it is backed up somewhere.

Now you're onto something, Jenny! Good show!

I do think that it's a little stifling to limit all female sailing garb to just two examples. In theory, if women copied men's dress, then any picture/painting of men sailors of the proper time frame could be used as an example of proper sailing attire.

I think you're definitely moving in a good direction, Aurore. Which is why I'm going to push you a little farther.

The simple fact remains that women didn't copy men's dress. Three women disguised themselves as men aboard ship. That's three (well two -- Lincken wasn't a pirate) women out of thousands of male pirates in this period. And as Foxe states, even they didn't wear men's clothes all the time -- or even most of the time.

Portraying a person from history is by definition stifling to the creative personality. You have fewer choices because you are choosing to do something they did, not something you would have done in their place.

The biggest problem with this mode of thinking is that we are trying to put ourselves into the mindset of people from 300 years ago. And the only way to make the kinds of choices that they would have made is to make choices that we know they did make. If you see what I mean...

Which is really funny to hear myself say because in real life, I'm far from conservative in my dress!

Um, sorry Kass, but the second quote was from me, not Aurora. Don't want her getting into trouble for my comments.

This is a really good, and neccessary topic, simply for the fact that in the GAoP there weren't many female pirates, as least that we know of. So, since there are a lot of females currently trying to play/recreate a pirate persona, how do you stay true to the times, and also to your character, when you have so little information to base it on? Males - tons, females - almost nada.

I agree that, other than when on a ship, a woman would wear women's clothes. On board, she would wear sailor's clothes. I liked the Dutch sailor example because it was simple attire, and I like the short jacket. Would this not be appropriate for a woman to wear on board?

[Ransom]

Not to quibble or anything, but I don't really like it when someone starts a thread in my name, when I didn't start it, at least without asking.

The subject is a good one, and I'll roll with it this time, but please, it's only polite to ask first, as I wouldn't dream of starting a thread in someone elses name.

Okay, so how do you adapt .....

[Ransom]

Great pictures Captain Sterling. Now what does that one fellow have hanging out of his glass?

I don't know what it is either, but it looks kinda rude!

[kass]

Say! can we split this "women's stuff" off into a thread or its own and keep it going? For once I have not only an opinion, but can remember the facts to at least participate in the conversation (however briefly)!

Your wish, Chole. My command! Topic split. You might want to reiterate the second part of your question in the old thread now.

So what does that make you if you can command The Empress?!

Sorry about the misattribution, FR. I don't know why but I keep getting you and Aurore confused! And you were both saying kinda the same thing.

You ask if a woman would wear the outfit of the Dutch sailors on board ship. I can't answer that. I can only say that we have two pictures of two female pirates and that's all the info we have. If I were portraying a female pirate, I'd dress as Bonny or Read. I can't answer if a female pirate would have dressed any differently because I don't know any more than you do. We just don't have any more information than two pictures of Bonny and Read.

As to the question of what women should do if they want to portray pirates, you have to ask yourself a big question first: Am I a role-player or am I a reenactor?

If you're a role-player, dress however you like. Your persona is your overriding guide. If you're a female pirate, you can make up what you wear just like you invent other parts of your persona. And there's nothing wrong with making things up in this context. That's what role-players do -- they make stuff up in order to play a role. And that's cool.

But if you're a reenactor, you're not one person -- you're a group of people. If that group consists of ten guys in frock coats and no one in common man's dress, then nine of the ten guys in frock coats have to take them off and change into lower class gear because no ship had all officers and no common seamen. If a group consists of equal numbers of women and men and all the women show up as Bonny and Read types, all but one or two of them must change into women's clothing in order to preserve the proper proportions.

In reenactment, we never get the numbers right. There just aren't enough reenactors to represent the number of people involved in any historical battle or event. But a crew that is composed of as many female pirates as male pirates is just misrepresenting the known numbers and therefore taking great liberties with history. And it matters.

[Silkie McDonough]

Could someone post the images in question here ...I'm a bit lost. TY

[kass]

Not to quibble or anything, but I don't really like it when someone starts a thread in my name, when I didn't start it, at least without asking.

The subject is a good one, and I'll roll with it this time, but please, it's only polite to ask first, as I wouldn't dream of starting a thread in someone elses name.

Okay, so how do you adapt .....

Oh geez, FR. I've got to be your least favourite person today! I didn't even consider how that would look! This is the first time I've ever used my Super Moderator Powers[tm] to split a topic. I didn't even know it was going to work!

Let me see if I can insert a post above yours and take the blame myself...

[Ransom]

Not to quibble or anything, but I don't really like it when someone starts a thread in my name, when I didn't start it, at least without asking.

The subject is a good one, and I'll roll with it this time, but please, it's only polite to ask first, as I wouldn't dream of starting a thread in someone elses name.

Okay, so how do you adapt .....

Oh geez, FR. I've got to be your least favourite person today! I didn't even consider how that would look! This is the first time I've ever used my Super Moderator Powers[tm] to split a topic. I didn't even know it was going to work!

Let me see if I can insert a post above yours and take the blame myself...

Don't worry about it, Kass. Let's just let the thread go on, and have fun with it.

[kass]

Here's the pictures:

[Ransom]

Okay, the one I'm most interested in, is the Dutch boat hand. Love the jacket. Would that work for a woman on board trying to dress like a man?

[kass]

Did you see my post at the end of the previous page? Or are you asking for other opinions and I'm just being arrogant...

[Ransom]

No, I wanted the Kass seal of approval!

[Ransom]

Did you see my post at the end of the previous page? Or are you asking for other opinions and I'm just being arrogant...

Oops, I just read the post, and my question was redundant. Sorry. That'll teach me to backread before I post!

[kass]

Well how about this. Here are the girls:

I don't see a significant difference between Bonny and Read's jackets in these pictures and the jacket on the Dutch boathand. :)

How'zat?

[Ransom]

Cool. But, do I have to bare my breasts for authenticity?

But, I still like the Dutch sailors pants (bloomers?) better than Bonny and Read's baggy things.