whats this hat?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

straw flat brim hats are documented but not straw tricorns.

seems this picture has been around the block.........

our friends over at historical trekkers beat this hat a while back- for our perusal----

http://www.historica...40e85f1d7514fe8

This italian pic is good piece of evidence things are often not so simple....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

It is clear tricorn or really really really close to it and the person ( no offence to anyone) don't want to admit that he was a little wrong. the hat has at least 2 sides turned up and it is more than likely that there is third side too..... Still this kind of tricorns were not very popular..... History is not so simple that "this was used but this was not" it is often more "this was popular and this was really really rare"......

Edited April 3, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Grymm]

It is clear tricorn or really really really close to it and the person ( no offence to anyone) don't want to admit that he was a little wrong. the hat has at least 2 sides turned up and it is more than likely that there is thirt side too..... Still this gind of tricorns were not very popular..... History is not so simple that "this was used but this not" it is often more "this was popular and this was really really rare"......

Exactly and we have , counting this one, one pic of straw trics. So straw trics should'nt be common at reconstructions. It's one of the things that often goes awry when representing history be it in modern, film, illustrations, re-enactment, etc is the making the common uncommon and the rare common.

Folded girly hat circa 1730 not a tricorn, but then the different perspective/side view makes that obvious, it the woman was painted from the front I think we'd be discussing women wearing straw tricorns =o)

The Curds and Whey Seller c.1730, in The Museum of London

Edited April 3, 2012 by Grymm

[Swashbuckler 1700]

It is clear tricorn or really really really close to it and the person ( no offence to anyone) don't want to admit that he was a little wrong. the hat has at least 2 sides turned up and it is more than likely that there is thirt side too..... Still this gind of tricorns were not very popular..... History is not so simple that "this was used but this not" it is often more "this was popular and this was really really rare"......

Exactly and we have , counting this one, one pic of straw trics. So straw trics should'nt be common at reconstructions. It's one of the things that often goes awry when representing history be it in modern, film, illustrations, re-enactment, etc is the making the common uncommon and the rare common.

Folded girly hat circa 1730 not a tricorn, but then the different perspective/side view makes that obvious, it the woman was painted from the front I think we'd be discussing women wearing straw tricorns =o)

The Curds and Whey Seller c.1730, in The Museum of London

I agree but that hat in the previous picture was is quite clear tricorn.....

[MajorChaos]

Folded girly hat circa 1730 not a tricorn, but then the different perspective/side view makes that obvious, it the woman was painted from the front I think we'd be discussing women wearing straw tricorns =o)

The Curds and Whey Seller c.1730, in The Museum of London

To me, this looks like a straw hat with a wide brim and the sides are pinned up, not a tricorn.

the other picture definitely looks like a straw hat done up like a tricorn and even worn backwards, unless it was easier to draw/paint it that way so to define it as a tricorn... I dunno, but it does look like a tricorn.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Folded girly hat circa 1730 not a tricorn, but then the different perspective/side view makes that obvious, it the woman was painted from the front I think we'd be discussing women wearing straw tricorns =o)

The Curds and Whey Seller c.1730, in The Museum of London

To me, this looks like a straw hat with a wide brim and the sides are pinned up, not a tricorn.

the other picture definitely looks like a straw hat done up like a tricorn and even worn backwards, unless it was easier to draw/paint it that way so to define it as a tricorn... I dunno, but it does look like a tricorn.

No one has claimed that it would be tricorn. I was talking about the other pic not that one.....

now meaning the first pic where is two men.

I say that it is tricorn since it looks too much of it. Also the painter have painted many details etc. so well that it is hardly a error made by artist....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I have been wondering what is this hat from circa 1725 picture of Spanish sailors's clothing etc. " sombrero

[IvanHenry]

Off topic but speaking of tricorns.... Whoa!

and... Whoa!

Edited April 3, 2012 by IvanHenry

[William Brand]

Going back to the first hat. The problem with the example at the start of the thread is that it brings up more questions. Was it intended to be a tricorn, or is it an example of a poor man's alteration? Is it tricorn shaped on purpose, or from long wear and abuse? The picture is an example of men in old, well worn clothes. The hat of each looks well weathered. I have seen many hats abused into new shapes or altered by use of work and weather over time , so that the resemble tricorns, bicorns and the like, without being tricorns by design. The problem with a single example, is that it cannot be compared from enough angles to support fact over speculation.

Still, it's one of the most interesting images used in this particular debate.

[Dutchman]

william, you're exactly right- thats why i felt the need to break it out. i would love to be able to say straw tricorns are p.c., but one artists rendering doesn't cut it in my book. Does it raise a doubt and make a good case to keep looking though? yup! i've seen hats take all sorts of style changes after use so who knows what the person life style or work habits have changed a hat into over time.

edit- swashbuckler, i deleted the two posts you put in the wrong thread.

[IvanHenry]

sorry wrong thread

Edited April 4, 2012 by IvanHenry

[Dutchman]

dude- you have your own thread on hat straps! kidding, maybe we can find answers to both our searches! i love the cuffs matching the weskit. check out the size of the shoe buckles too! also the folded umbrella. I wonder what the material is?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

So now let's move backwards and see if we can find the earliest example of hat straps, Xs and other such things. Here is as far back as I can immediately find.

Frans van der Mijn (1719-1783) Jan Pranger (1700-1773). Director General of the Gold Coast (1730-1734), 1742

See my Bonnet post in the actual tread....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

so here is the dilemma. is there any written documentation of straw tricorns? i know we had straw hats so that's not even up for debate, but i'm wondering about tricorn.

I don't believe that people always write everyting down... so that there is no written documentation of them does not mean that they did not existed..... I think that there is metions if straw hat and few of those can well be tricorns.....

[Dutchman]

" I think that there is metions if straw hat and few of those can well be tricorns..... "

it makes logical sense, but speculating does me no good i'm afraid.

[IvanHenry]

Can anyone tell what the "Short loose fitting white or red jacket/vest" is? I can't tell what the heck it is. It's always bothered me, a I was somewhat interested in reproducing these items.

I have been wondering what is this hat from circa 1725 picture of Spanish sailors's clothing etc. " sombrero

[IvanHenry]

Well, it's not period, it's not a tri but "The Bean Eater" 1590 has a straw hat.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Can anyone tell what the "Short loose fitting white or red jacket/vest" is? I can't tell what the heck it is. It's always bothered me, a I was somewhat interested in reproducing these items.

I have been wondering what is this hat from circa 1725 picture of Spanish sailors's clothing etc. " sombrero

I dunno but the hat seems to be tricorne to me...