Dutchman Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 hey mates, pulled this picture from another thread. looking at the hat on the right, I have a question- and I'm sorry we are going here. what does the hat appear to be made of in the painting? the artist has clearly made the hat on the left look old and "Soft" with wonderful shadowing. The hat on the right has held its tricorn shape, but what about the horizontal brush streaks. Based on the hat on the left, the artist knows how to do a hat. regarding the right side hat, based on the color and horizontal stripes may this be a cursed straw tricorn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Straw. That's my immediate impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Tell me that doesn't look like Captain Jim. C'mon, tell me. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 What!!!? Captain Jim is superior to that fellow in every way. How dare you compare our captain (who will never accept his captaincy) with the man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 ok, ok, it looks like capt. jim, but what does the hat look like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Unless anyone else can convince me otherwise, that sure looks like straw to me. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 so here is the dilemma. is there any written documentation of straw tricorns? i know we had straw hats so that's not even up for debate, but i'm wondering about tricorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 That looks like a straw tricorn, either on purpose or by accident. I suppose it could be an old hat that has just been 'tricorned' by abuse over the years. What year is the painting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grymm Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Sewn straw plait rather than woven straw. Like in this titfer In England it was a big industry in Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire, Berkshire and Bedfordshire from the 16thC right through to the end of the 19thC. Women and girls were paid to strip and split the straw then plait it into long lengths then soaked and sewn in a spiral into hats bonnets and the like. Italy produced the finest straw, called leghorn, for those low crowned hats worn by women in the 18thC by pauper or princess alike. By the late 17thC the term straw could also mean various grasses, paper and occassionally wood chip plaited or woven into hats like straw can. Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 swashbuckler will have to date it since he posted originally. the guess is 1730ish, per the other thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Sewn straw plait rather than woven straw. Like in this titfer Are there merchants that make that sort of thing today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 hit good will or similar thrift store mid summer, best time to get them for a buck or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Unless anyone else can convince me otherwise, that sure looks like straw to me. Aye so it is to me.... pic is from circa 1730 BTW.... relying on Ivan Henry (there is 3 datong errors in his gallery( no offence) two Woodes Rogers picture and one Sailor returns picture is not from 1728 but 1750) it is mabe by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_Ceruti ..... Edited March 31, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) See also this http://arthistory.ab...Two-Beggars.htm So date is right.... Edited March 31, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I fin d interesting that that hat seems to be tricorn or really close to it..... There is another interesting picture from him this is circa 1730 Edited March 31, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have yet to find picture of 15th century farmers with straw hats...... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grymm Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Keep looking chap they're out there =o) Try looking in 'books of hours' they do turn up. Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Keep looking chap they're out there =o) Try looking in 'books of hours' they do turn up. .... I will continue Edited March 31, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Not the picture I was looking for... but here one man have that hat I keep looking that pic that I am after.... but it seems that it will take few days... Edited March 31, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I like to say soemting about sailors's straw hats: Sailors in Napoleonic times (around 1790-1810s and later) used straw hats especially in the West- Indies. But it appears that before that time they were not very sailorous so to speak. Not to say that they were not used before but there was no common habit to sailors to use them extensively. Edited March 31, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 What!!!? Captain Jim is superior to that fellow in every way. How dare you compare our captain (who will never accept his captaincy) with the man! It's Captain Jim before he became a pirate and got the spiffy red socks and nice hat. Incidentally, I think that would be an awesome hat for a re-enactor to have if they wanted to stand out in the crowd of tricorns. I'd be tempted to try and get one myself if I didn't already have a Patrick Hand Original. Italy produced the finest straw, called leghorn, for those low crowned hats worn by women in the 18thC by pauper or princess alike. Grymm, you are a fountain of knowledge! I wondered what Leghorn was (other than a place). I come across it occasionally in my readings. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted March 31, 2012 Author Share Posted March 31, 2012 leghorn is a rooster in southern climates straw tricorns abound and often lead to scrutiny by the PC folks. I have not been able to find any documentation one way or the other until this picture came up, which now creates a suspicion of such- but still does not confirm it was done or who/ what class would wear them in what situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grymm Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Grymm, you are a fountain of knowledge! I wondered what Leghorn was (other than a place). I come across it occasionally in my readings. Cheers chap =o) comes from not having much of a life outside historical stuff, started as a hobby and has ended up as my job. Mr Swashbuckler; For muddyevil straw hatness have a look at the lovely Karen Larsdatters site http://www.larsdatte...m/strawhats.htm Many many luvverly pictures, in fact it's always worth bookmarking her site, makes for a good 'jumping off' point for image searches and 'taint just mud eater stuff either, Karen also has started putting together an 18thC version too. Muddyevil http://www.larsdatter.com/index.html 18thC http://larsdatter.com/18c/index.html leghorn is a rooster I I I I I I say boy! Edited March 31, 2012 by Grymm Lambourne! Lambourne! Stop that man pissin' on the hedge, it's imported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Grymm, you are a fountain of knowledge! I wondered what Leghorn was (other than a place). I come across it occasionally in my readings. Cheers chap =o) comes from not having much of a life outside historical stuff, started as a hobby and has ended up as my job. Mr Swashbuckler; For muddyevil straw hatness have a look at the lovely Karen Larsdatters site http://www.larsdatte...m/strawhats.htm Many many luvverly pictures, in fact it's always worth bookmarking her site, makes for a good 'jumping off' point for image searches and 'taint just mud eater stuff either, Karen also has started putting together an 18thC version too. Muddyevil http://www.larsdatter.com/index.html 18thC http://larsdatter.com/18c/index.html leghorn is a rooster I I I I I I say boy! thank you very much! "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutchman Posted April 3, 2012 Author Share Posted April 3, 2012 straw flat brim hats are documented but not straw tricorns. seems this picture has been around the block......... our friends over at historical trekkers beat this hat a while back- for our perusal---- http://www.historicaltrekking.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8933&sid=4bb7d14d14d3a005240e85f1d7514fe8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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