landlubbersanonymous Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Still got the flags if anyone wants to pick up the dream where I left off..... Yeaaaaaaah. One can never have enough unfinished projects lying around. With regards to black fabric. One might ask, would acquiring black fabrics during the coarse of doing business with Spanish vessels and residing in a region where Spain had a strong influence be much of an issue? Consider Spain's propensity for conservative fashion, the need for mourning dress, the presence of darkly robed Catholic emissaries and their commute over the seas for decades. While I don't recall reading/seeing anything about the disposition of clothing being used for anything other than garments during the period, would this lend itself as a possible source for material with which to stitch black flags? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Foxe is probalby your man to answer that question... I would imagine that "if" a pirate vessel were to capture a vessel with proper black material, than yeah... it would probably be made into a flag. But what if the material seized is heavy coat weight black wool? Not good for flag flying, but good for selling? This is where I say, what we, in 2012 think is cool and "right" shouldn't drive the GAOP historical train. The priate flag was a tool used to scare other ship OUT of fighting and INTO surrendering. Its evident that from descriptions of period flags, while they have some commonalities, there was variance over time in color and devices used. Overtime (probably at the very end of the GAOP) they get more and more "settled" to being a black flack with a skull. Definately by the 1800s, that is the pirate flag de rigueur. In modern living history/pirate role play, we look for reasons to justify what we WANT to wear. I am generalizing here, so bear with me and reserve the "but.... but...buts". We WANT to wear fancy dress, and look like gentlemen pirates with fancy silk etc etc... so we rationalize that by saying, "i captured a ship with this on board and I am wearing it now...." Thats cool, and maybe it did happen, but probably the exception, not the norm. The average pirate cared less about shaking up the early 18th century social norms by wearing clothes beyond his stature, and more about selling the said clothing to make MONEY and buy WHORES and LIQUOR. If you ask me, thats what piracy is all about... whores and liquor! So, if said pirate captured a bale of black wool, I am thinking that they would be saying...."wow.. we can sell this at the next port and get drunk and laid!".... more than they would be saying... "whoaaa, look at this fabric! I am seeing "cool pirate flag" here mate!" Capt Death Black Dealer Jones: "You know Back Hearted Jm Jam, I have been meaning to upgrade our Yellow Pirate flag to something more menacing, something more "modern" in Pirate flags... have you seen Black Beards flag???? Not THATs a pirate flag! This black coat material, though heavy and not good to make a flag out of, would look very intimadating with a skull, crossed bleading hearts, a hour glass with wings, and a 200ft tall Japanese Reptile breathing nuclear radiation out of his mouth.... think you could sew one of those up for me? Black Hearted Jim Jam: Um... aye Captain, that would be a grand sight indeed... arrrr.... Of course though, we could make our way to Torguaga and sell the fabric... then find Molly Littledove.... Captain Death Black Dealer Jones: Molly Littledove???... the Barbadian beauty who is round in the counter and bluff in the bow? Black Hearted Jim Jam: Aye Captain, the same... Captain Death Black Dealer Jones: (shouting) ALL RIGHT YOU SCURVY DOGS... ALL HANDS ON DECK AND SET SAIL FOR TORTUAGA!..... CREW: ARRRRRR.......! Edited March 23, 2012 by Gentleman of Fortune Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 In modern living history/pirate role play, we look for reasons to justify what we WANT to wear. I am generalizing here, so bear with me and reserve the "but.... but...buts". We WANT to wear fancy dress, and look like gentlemen pirates with fancy silk etc etc... so we rationalize that by saying, "i captured a ship with this on board and I am wearing it now...." Thats cool, and maybe it did happen, but probably the exception, not the norm. The average pirate cared less about shaking up the early 18th century social norms by wearing clothes beyond his stature, and more about selling the said clothing to make MONEY and buy WHORES and LIQUOR. That's kind of my impression from what I've read. (It seems to me to go hand-in-hand with the discussion we've been having in the pirates the savers? thread.) So, if said pirate captured a bale of black wool, I am thinking that they would be saying...."wow.. we can sell this at the next port and get drunk and laid!".... more than they would be saying... "whoaaa, look at this fabric! I am seeing "cool pirate flag" here mate!" Pirates would have made piss-poor period correct pirate reenactors, y'know. Although this (in a way) sort of belies your black wool bunting argument, doesn't it? Just as Davis used a dirty tarp, so I would think most pirates would use whatever they had at hand. It may have been an existing flag or it may have been some other piece of cloth they had. The exception being Bart Roberts who seemed to have more than a passing interest in his flags and their appearance. At least that's my impression from reading his account. I guess when it comes down to it, you have to recognize that pirates weren't just a mass of people who all did the same thing for the same reason, they were composed of individuals, just like any other group of people. Human nature is human nature. (And THAT sort of belies my agreement with your previous quote. But perhaps I am equivocating... ) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Foxe is probalby your man to answer that question... I would imagine that "if" a pirate vessel were to capture a vessel with proper black material, than yeah... it would probably be made into a flag. But what if the material seized is heavy coat weight black wool? Not good for flag flying, but good for selling? This is where I say, what we, in 2012 think is cool and "right" shouldn't drive the GAOP historical train. The priate flag was a tool used to scare other ship OUT of fighting and INTO surrendering. Its evident that from descriptions of period flags, while they have some commonalities, there was variance over time in color and devices used. Overtime (probably at the very end of the GAOP) they get more and more "settled" to being a black flack with a skull. Definately by the 1800s, that is the pirate flag de rigueur. In modern living history/pirate role play, we look for reasons to justify what we WANT to wear. I am generalizing here, so bear with me and reserve the "but.... but...buts". We WANT to wear fancy dress, and look like gentlemen pirates with fancy silk etc etc... so we rationalize that by saying, "i captured a ship with this on board and I am wearing it now...." Thats cool, and maybe it did happen, but probably the exception, not the norm. The average pirate cared less about shaking up the early 18th century social norms by wearing clothes beyond his stature, and more about selling the said clothing to make MONEY and buy WHORES and LIQUOR. If you ask me, thats what piracy is all about... whores and liquor! So, if said pirate captured a bale of black wool, I am thinking that they would be saying...."wow.. we can sell this at the next port and get drunk and laid!".... more than they would be saying... "whoaaa, look at this fabric! I am seeing "cool pirate flag" here mate!" Capt Death Black Dealer Jones: "You know Back Hearted Jm Jam, I have been meaning to upgrade our Yellow Pirate flag to something more menacing, something more "modern" in Pirate flags... have you seen Black Beards flag???? Not THATs a pirate flag! This black coat material, though heavy and not good to make a flag out of, would look very intimadating with a skull, crossed bleading hearts, a hour glass with wings, and a 200ft tall Japanese Reptile breathing nuclear radiation out of his mouth.... think you could sew one of those up for me? Black Hearted Jim Jam: Um... aye Captain, that would be a grand sight indeed... arrrr.... Of course though, we could make our way to Torguaga and sell the fabric... then find Molly Littledove.... Captain Death Black Dealer Jones: Molly Littledove???... the Barbadian beauty who is round in the counter and bluff in the bow? Black Hearted Jim Jam: Aye Captain, the same... Captain Death Black Dealer Jones: (shouting) ALL RIGHT YOU SCURVY DOGS... ALL HANDS ON DECK AND SET SAIL FOR TORTUAGA!..... CREW: ARRRRRR.......! I am quoting Foxe and I agree wit him " There is a tendency to assume that most pirates were not so successful as the "big names", but in practice the companies of Bellamy, Roberts, Blackbeard, Taylor, La Buse, Low, and other "successful" pirates made up a very considerable portion of the pirates active in the GAoP." Foxe quote ends here.... There is some records of finer pirate clothing but there is no dought that normal pirates looked mainly like sailors so I am not arguing against you. Like Mission said pirates weren't just a mass of people who all did the same thing but NOTE that actually really many pirates knew each other and so many stuff like flag tradition speard..... the too generalization is always bad.... As for black wool. silk is recorded as flag material quite many times but there is ofcourse others... I gues that sometimes pirates would just sew their dirty handkerchief together and that was their black flag... I am not actually a reenactor but they should look more like sailors instead of gentlemen..... and often they are little bit too clean and all..... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 When Tracy hand-stitched this monster out of wool bunting, it felt so heavy we thought it would never fly. Not so. The first time we ran it up the pole at Fort Taylor it filled like a sail. It flapped so much and with so much gusto, that it now needs to be mended in a few places. I'm 100% behind wool bunting, both historically and from experience. Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Yes, but you're also a fan of tarps, painted brown. (I know. I sort of helped.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Yes, but you're also a fan of tarps, painted brown. (I know. I sort of helped.) True, but that was a spur of the moment banner. While it was never intended to be flown, It was intended to be ridiculously huge. You could tent a crew under that thing. Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlubbersanonymous Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) This black coat material, though heavy and not good to make a flag out of, would look very intimadating with a skull, crossed bleading hearts, a hour glass with wings, and a 200ft tall Japanese Reptile breathing nuclear radiation out of his mouth... :::Someone's been talking.:::: Gentleman - Thank you for your input. (And until we hear from Foxe, we'll go ahead and modify the screenplay to exclude the nun's habits being used for the flag and the sequence where she's tied to the bowsprit.) William - That flag RAWKS Edited March 23, 2012 by landlubbersanonymous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 William - That flag RAWKS Thank you, but apart from the design the lion's share of the work goes to my wife. Hand sewing a flag of that magnitude was hell on fingers and eyesight. I'll pass along the compliment. Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If you ask me, thats what piracy is all about... whores and liquor! So was sailors life during GAoP or in later time like seen in this But enter there at your own risk it maybe really disturbing http://joyfulmolly.wordpress.com/2007/07/03/resourceart-even-more-18th-century-naval-naughtiness/ You have been warned I am not responsible for this. "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landlubbersanonymous Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 If you ask me, thats what piracy is all about... whores and liquor! So was sailors life during GAoP or in later time like seen in this But enter there at your own risk ... Swashbuckler - Thank you. (One knows one's turning into a pirate nerd/anorak when a link to period erotic art is opened with the anticipation of seeing a set of well drawn woman's stays.) William - Kudos to the chef on the flag work! Lucky we are to have companions with talents we can tap into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentleman of Fortune Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 WRW Dude that is an awesome flag! Kudos to you and the wife! Come aboard my pirate re-enacting site http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/ Where you will find lots of information on building your authentic Pirate Impression! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brand Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 William - Kudos to the chef on the flag work! Lucky we are to have companions with talents we can tap into. Amen. It was all her idea to hand stitch it. I would have been happy with machine stitching on something that large, but she said no. She insisted that that much wool and linen should be hand sewn. I didn't argue her generous offer. WRW Dude that is an awesome flag! Kudos to you and the wife! Thank you. I passed along all the compliments and she's beaming. This would be a good time for me to propose a silk version of my Moorish flag... Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Jack Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 If I may "toss in" a note on painting in a design . . . A while back, I spent too much time trying to find out what kind of paint was used on flags. It turned out to be a resin-based paint that is now illegal due to chemical leach involved that is now considered a hazardous material. Further research showed that the dangerous resin was replaced with a MUCH safer and more stable plastic medium, to create acrylic paint. From that time on, the resin paint vanished and acrylic became the "standard" one used in flags and all resin-paint applications. I was, then, recommended by a number of flag experts and historical preservation/experts to use acrylic as the best and most accurate substitute and to AVOID enamels completely in a period-correct flag. The acrylic look, feel, and wear is supposed to be IDENTICAL to actual-period-correct resin paint, but much easier to use, safer, actually available, and so forth. I was surprised at that response and reaction . . . but it came from a number of independent and knowledgeable sources. So, if/when I make my period-correct flags, I plan to do any painted stuff using acrylic. (Oh, and I have a bit of a flag obsession . . . ) -John "Tartan Jack" Wages, of South Carolina  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 About yellow flags: this is navy signal quide from 1715. "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HBlackthorne Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I am so very glad I found this thread since I have been almost literally tearing my hair out [and since my hair is down to my waist that's a LOT of hair] trying to get some flags up and going. Our original flag was sewn by a friend from a very lightweight cotton [its what we had in the house when we realized that we really should have a flag for the parade in a few days] and while it was acceptable it was really low end work and promptly fell apart after a weekend of use. We then made due with a "generic pirate flag" that we found at a Goodwill which instead of being some modern material seemed to be cotton [we figure it was an old replica flag from 50s possibly used in some Parade or something]. Well now the Captain wants to get our flag back up and flying so since I am one of the few with time on my hands I said I would do it. I have on its way some cloth, what I assume is a naval signal flag for a cruise ship, that I will use as a basis for a flag. The colors are the ones I want and are already weathered. I figure this would probably have been one way they would have done it back then, re-purposing captured flags for material and sewing it all together. Imagine you are a merchant vessel and after a mutiny you go Pirate. Well you have your signal flags and your national flag,... tar the Nation flag thereby darkening it [or if anyone knows how to dye then just dye it a dark color] then use the signal flags to sew on whatever insignia you want. You have all kinds of options just with those alone. Personally I will be going that route for some of the flags and a "well made" route for others,...I plan on having both a weathered version and a newer version of our flags just in case we need them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jas. Hook Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 HBlackthorne - Avast haulin' ye hair out, you can always checkout the work by the Pub's own Capn'Mac. He's also listed as dirkanddagger.com Jas. Hook "Born on an island, live on an island... the sea has always been in my blood." Jas. Hook "You can't direct the wind . . . but . . . you can adjust the sails." "Don't eat the chickens with writing on their beaks." Governor Sawney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I have on its way some cloth, what I assume is a naval signal flag for a cruise ship, that I will use as a basis for a flag. The colors are the ones I want and are already weathered. I figure this would probably have been one way they would have done it back then, re-purposing captured flags for material and sewing it all together. Imagine you are a merchant vessel and after a mutiny you go Pirate. Well you have your signal flags and your national flag,... tar the Nation flag thereby darkening it [or if anyone knows how to dye then just dye it a dark color] then use the signal flags to sew on whatever insignia you want. You have all kinds of options just with those alone. That sounds like a neat idea, although I've never seen any evidence for reusing old flags. Of course, I've never seen any evidence against it either. When GOF mentioned it, I think his primary goal was to get a more accurate materials, not to recreate anything we have evidence of pirates doing. Usually when flag creation is mentioned, period accounts just note that the pirates "made a flag" and don't give a whole lot of detail about about the process. (Other than Howell Davis using a dirty tarpaulin in lieu of an actual flag, of course.) OTOH, keep in mind that pirates would want to carry flags of multiple nations so that they could trick their prey into thinking they were friendly and get close enough to attack. So it might have been more beneficial to keep a nation's flag as it was rather than paint over it. (Sorry, I am just mulling over the concept of pirates reusing an existing flag...) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=395595593822889 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) About the yellow flags which some pirates used. Yes yellow flags weren't, at least universally, associated with quarantine in Gaop. However the history seems to have more complicated issues http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf~q.html A modern site but to me it is reliable looking. Also here is a section that gives some light why the colour yellow was almost as spooky as black "According to Fergusson, the origin of the yellow flag has to be traced back to the Middle Ages, when the heretics had to wear yellow clothes, the yellow colour being considered as the symbol of the hell fire, of betrayal, of jealousy and treachery. This was indeed a negative colour. The meaning of the "Yellow Admiral", known in the 19th century, is probably related. A "Yellow Admiral" was an old or supernumerary Captain who, short before retirement, was appointed Rear Admiral without ever having hoisted their personal flag on a ship of either the red, yellow or blue squadron. The name of "Yellow jack" given by the British seamen to the yellow fever seems to be related, too. During the great plague epidemics, it was common to mark the houses of the infected houses with a yellow cross and to force their inhabitants to wear yellow clothes." Edited April 30, 2013 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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