Flag fabrics?

[Gwen S.]

I wasn't entirely sure where to put this thread, so please relocate it if necessary. =)

It's my captain's birthday soon, and I've been trying to figure out what to get/do/make for him for a while now. It occurred to me today that, while he has designed a flag for himself and has a few items with that design on them... he doesn't have an actual FLAG!

This will not do!

I looked around these boards and the internet in general, and found that the most common material for the body of the flag was wool bunting, right? Well, wool bunting is wicked expensive these days, which makes me sad. I'd really like to use SOME form of wool, but having never purchased or worked with that fiber before, I'm not sure what else to look for. I've got several "light weight" black wools bookmarked, and I can certainly order swatches of them, but what should I look for in a flag-appropriate wool?

Admittedly this flag is not likely to be very exposed to wind and weather -- if it's not just hung up on a wall, it'll probably be carried by a member of the crew. So while I'm not too concerned with it "flying" nicely, it does need to be lightweight, and I want it to look a little more "period-ish" than the nylon flags I'm used to seeing.

Would linen be an acceptable alternative in this case? It sounds to me like linen was more used for the appliques on the flags and not so much for the main body of them, but I'm not aiming for period accuracy, just "something better than nylon", hah!

Basically, I'm seeking advice in these areas:

1. What wool (or wool-like) fabric would work for a flag, and do you have any advice on where I might find it for... not hideous prices?

2. If a suitable wool isn't to be found, would linen work well enough?

3. ...Any other suggestions based on your own experiences? =)

Thank you!

[Brit.Privateer]

Since we are on the topic of pirate flag materials, and since I have had the idea of making a period correct flag as well on the back burner for a while, I've got a related question.

If a crew was just getting started and wanted to make their own black flag, how available would black wool bunting be at sea? Would they actually go to all the trouble to dye wool bunting black (or something close)? Or what other material would they have used? I know about and can document black silk. I can also document using a dirty tarpaulin to fool an oponent into believing a prize vessel was a pirate vessel (I think that's in Johnson somewhere).

Can anyone else contribute to that?

[Fox]

Wool bunting was probably not the be-all-and-end-all flag material, and to be honest I wonder if it's something of a reenactorism. Some years ago Gentleman of Fortune did some research into period flags in a general sense and pronounced wool bunting to be the most common material. GoF's research is usually pretty good, but I don't personally know what his evidence was in this case. Regardless, since then whenever flags get mentioned, so does wool bunting.

Aside from the aforementioned dirty tarpaulin, the only two materials I've seen period references to for pirate flags are 'ras de St. Maur', which is a woollen cloth, or silk.

Linen would work and is a period-available cloth, so if you can get cheap black linen then go for it.

[Mission]

I would think it would be what ever material the pirates had at hand. One account in the General History of the Most Notorious Pirates simply refers to a group of pirates making themselves a flag to go pirating in an offhand manner.

Although, as Foxe says, I have a reference to silk from the General History account of Robert's flag. “They came to Whydah with a St. George’s Ensign, a black Silk Flag flying at their Mizzen-peek, and a Jack and Pendant [pennant?] of the same.” (I haven't got the ras de St. Maur reference, but I have an extraordinarily crappy version of the General History right now.)

Of course Roberts had been pretty successful by this point in the story and had probably come across a cargo of silk in his various thefts. Still, I don't think anyone could seriously fault you for making a flag out of whatever period material you had that would bear up to being whipped about in the wind.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Since we are on the topic of pirate flag materials, and since I have had the idea of making a period correct flag as well on the back burner for a while, I've got a related question.

If a crew was just getting started and wanted to make their own black flag, how available would black wool bunting be at sea? Would they actually go to all the trouble to dye wool bunting black (or something close)? Or what other material would they have used? I know about and can document black silk. I can also document using a dirty tarpaulin to fool an oponent into believing a prize vessel was a pirate vessel (I think that's in Johnson somewhere).

Can anyone else contribute to that?

Pirates migth have got dark silk as loot and done flag with it. Linen also rotates in my mind and black would not be impossible to get. school me if I am wrong....

[Swashbuckler 1700]

This gargo did not have too much black silk but it had some

the Boston Newsletter, June 1722 listed a variety of garments the Ed Low's pirates took: "…one scarlet suit of Clothes, one new gray Broad Cloth Coat, 1 Sword, with a fine red Velvet Belt…nine Bags of Coat and Jacket Buttons, a considerable quantity of sewing Silk and Mohair, Shoe Buckles…one Scarff of Red Persian Silk, fringed with black Silk…one Beaver Hat bound with Silver Lace… "

Edited March 12, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

linen was around, so I would think, that if it was found by pirates, yes they would use it. It is historically accurate, I believe, so linen would work.

[Brit.Privateer]

Interesting. I do wonder how frequent black linen came about (or was it a really dark blue)? Also, how hard would it be to do a black dying on ship (and would they actually go out of their way to do it)?

[Mission]

It's funny, I was wondering about the black thing as well. We've had discussions about how expensive black fabric was. I am thinking particularly of the thread on Clothing Colours starting here. We've also talked about how to die leather black which sort of went off into a minor discussion about how to achieve period black. Those discussions may give you some insight into coloring fabrics and use of black.

Does it seem to anyone else that it might be a bit much to expect the average pirate to dye their flag? I would more readily expect them to find a piece of black material and give it to a sailmaker to stitch the required design on it. (Based on nothing I can point to, mind you.)

[michaelsbagley]

Based mostly on what I know, and a little bit of experience with folks doing period dying at events.... Linen is notoriously difficult to dye using period techniques. My reddish-brown neckerchief dyed using modern techniques still bleeds colour after four or five years hard use (red and black are the worst colours for bleeding in my experience).

So while I wouldn't rule out black linen for flags, I would rate it as unlikely, or at best a rare exception item.

That all said, I bought black linen a year or two ago for the purpose of making a flag (one of those projects that has found it's way into a permanent cycle of procrastination).

[Fox]

Interesting. I do wonder how frequent black linen came about (or was it a really dark blue)? Also, how hard would it be to do a black dying on ship (and would they actually go out of their way to do it)?

One pirate's flag (Harris' I think, but I might be mistaken since I'm too lazy to check) was decribed as black by one witness and blue by another. I think this is probably down to the dye. True black was very hard to dye and very expensive, but a lot of cheaper very dark colours might be described as black. In the case of the flag I think one witness described what they were supposed to see - a black flag - while the other described what they actually saw - a blue flag.

Also, bear in mind that not all pirate flags were black: red was common, there's more than one ref. to a white pirate flag, and there is evidence to suggest that until 1718 at least the most common colour for pirate flags was yellow.

The ras de St. Maur reference isn't from Johnson, so you won't find it even in the best editions...

And no, I don't think pirates dyed their own black. For what it's worth, in the only period account I can think of describing the application of a design on a pirate flag it was painted.

[Cascabel]

All things considered, would it be beyond the realm of possibility for the flag to be made of canvas or linen simply painted black with either a painted on or sewn on design of white canvas ? Seems to me that the needed materials were already at hand. Painted fabric would be a bit stiff at first, but would soon soften from flapping in the breeze. Much simpler than obtaining a large piece of black dyed cloth, and a replacement could easily be made when needed. Any thoughts on that idea ??

[Gwen S.]

Hehe, I believe there's at least one thread over in Twill already discussing a lot of this; while I certainly appreciate all of this information, I posted this thread more because I was hoping to hear about some modern experiences with different fabrics for flags, and/or thoughts on what specific modern fabrics might make for reasonable substitutes. =) You guys are so delightfully geeky, I love it! My kind of people

[Fox]

Oh, if you want modern fabrics then the best thing I can recommend is a black cotton bedsheet

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Interesting. I do wonder how frequent black linen came about (or was it a really dark blue)? Also, how hard would it be to do a black dying on ship (and would they actually go out of their way to do it)?

One pirate's flag (Harris' I think, but I might be mistaken since I'm too lazy to check) was decribed as black by one witness and blue by another. I think this is probably down to the dye. True black was very hard to dye and very expensive, but a lot of cheaper very dark colours might be described as black. In the case of the flag I think one witness described what they were supposed to see - a black flag - while the other described what they actually saw - a blue flag.

Also, bear in mind that not all pirate flags were black: red was common, there's more than one ref. to a white pirate flag, and there is evidence to suggest that until 1718 at least the most common colour for pirate flags was yellow.

The ras de St. Maur reference isn't from Johnson, so you won't find it even in the best editions...

And no, I don't think pirates dyed their own black. For what it's worth, in the only period account I can think of describing the application of a design on a pirate flag it was painted.

But black was certainly one of the used colors and there is references to it... but is there many?... Is the yellow reference for plague ships's yellow flag?

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I think we can look the only real Jolly Roger while (it is of the gaop period) It has been worn (indeed) but to me it seems that it has never been really black but more someting between dark brown and black... it also looks a little (really little) reddish or bluish and little geen... (perhaps due of fotography)

Edited March 14, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I give someting odd to wonder about:'

I had one pirate documentary on dvd and I took snapshot of it and it was this flag picture.. I didnt know were is from but this (old?) picture was used to illustrate the documentary...

Yellow flag seems actually intimidating... so did the sailors think (especially if that color had bad name because of plague ships) it also really easily visible color....

Edited March 13, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

I also believe that really heavily tarred cloth would be enough to make black appeareance.....

Edited March 13, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Swashbuckler 1700]

Interesting. I do wonder how frequent black linen came about (or was it a really dark blue)? Also, how hard would it be to do a black dying on ship (and would they actually go out of their way to do it)?

One pirate's flag (Harris' I think, but I might be mistaken since I'm too lazy to check) was decribed as black by one witness and blue by another. I think this is probably down to the dye. True black was very hard to dye and very expensive, but a lot of cheaper very dark colours might be described as black. In the case of the flag I think one witness described what they were supposed to see - a black flag - while the other described what they actually saw - a blue flag.

Also, bear in mind that not all pirate flags were black: red was common, there's more than one ref. to a white pirate flag, and there is evidence to suggest that until 1718 at least the most common colour for pirate flags was yellow.

The ras de St. Maur reference isn't from Johnson, so you won't find it even in the best editions...

And no, I don't think pirates dyed their own black. For what it's worth, in the only period account I can think of describing the application of a design on a pirate flag it was painted.

What evidence there is of yellow flags? I like to know...

[Fox]

But black was certainly one of the used colors and there is references to it... but is there many?... Is the yellow reference for plague ships's yellow flag?

Oh yes, by the early 1720s black was so common a colour that the phrase "black flag" was synonymous with a pirate flag.

In 1718 however privateer George Shelvocke wanted to appear intimidating from a distance and so hoisted the colours of the Holy Roman Empire, a black eagle on a yellow field. The reason for doing so, and I'm paraphrasing the original account by one of his officers named William Betagh, was that it was the closest thing they had to a pirate flag, since pirate flags were yellow with a black skeleton.

At that date, a yellow flag was not associated with quarantine.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

But black was certainly one of the used colors and there is references to it... but is there many?... Is the yellow reference for plague ships's yellow flag?

Oh yes, by the early 1720s black was so common a colour that the phrase "black flag" was synonymous with a pirate flag.

In 1718 however privateer George Shelvocke wanted to appear intimidating from a distance and so hoisted the colours of the Holy Roman Empire, a black eagle on a yellow field. The reason for doing so, and I'm paraphrasing the original account by one of his officers named William Betagh, was that it was the closest thing they had to a pirate flag, since pirate flags were yellow with a black skeleton.

At that date, a yellow flag was not associated with quarantine.

Good quote but it not suggest that the yellow was the most common color but it seems to me that it was only one of many pirate flag designs that they could easily mimic with national colors... Quote don't also tell how many or who used yellow flags... It also seems to me that if pirate flag was yellow it should had skeleton and that not suggest that lets say Bellamy's J roger in 1717 was yellow since it had skull an bones not whole skeleton in it...

Edited March 14, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

If you insist I'll root out the original quote (though I've posted it on here before so it should be findable with a search). The original quote certainly suggests that Shelvocke/Betagh believed yellow to be the commonest colour for pirate flags in 1718.

If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd be pleased to see it.

[Swashbuckler 1700]

If you insist I'll root out the original quote (though I've posted it on here before so it should be findable with a search). The original quote certainly suggests that Shelvocke/Betagh believed yellow to be the commonest colour for pirate flags in 1718.

If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd be pleased to see it.

while there is really good evidence for yellow pirate flags is there any evidence for it used by any particular pirate... names?

Certainly yellow flag with skeleton was surprisingly common style and modern day people find it hard to understand since all are used to black.... Still even yellow flags had black markings so one + for black pirate flag....

Color is actually to me easy to understand and it reminds me of this

[Swashbuckler 1700]

If you insist I'll root out the original quote (though I've posted it on here before so it should be findable with a search). The original quote certainly suggests that Shelvocke/Betagh believed yellow to be the commonest colour for pirate flags in 1718.

If you have any evidence to the contrary I'd be pleased to see it.

But not all pirates even in the 1718 used yellow flags.. In general history In Johnson's General History Worley's (who operated 1718-1719) flag is described as "a black Ensign, with a white Death's Head in the Middle of it.. Other description (tell me the original source please this was from pirate mythory site) "Black Flagg with a Humane Skelleton is it "

Edited March 14, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700

[Fox]

I didn't say that yellow was the only colour used before 1718...