Let Us Talk Terms

[Mission]

OK, I was scolded at FTPI last year for calling rope 'rope' and not 'line.' Now I find this in Alexander Hamilton's A New Account of the East Indies (17th - 18th Centuries):

"...every Thing in the Ship fast, our Yards lowered as low as conveniently they could be, and our Sails made fast with Coils of small Ropes, besides their usual furling Lines." (Hamilton, p. 485)

I take it rope may have been called 'line' when it was attached to the masts and sails (or It may not have been. In fact, I have no idea.) However, he also calls the stuff rope in the same sentence. So I am thinking I was wronged at FTPI, when looking for what was small coils of whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Like Foxe said in another thread, "They were not so concerned with giving things specific labels as we are now..."

Second, I have a question about a term in this same passage. Hamilton says,

"...we had five Foot Water in the Ship, and no Possibility of getting it out by pumping, for our Main-mast breaking in the Parteners of the Upper Deck, disabled both our Pumps."

What is a Partener? Note that it may be incorrectly spelled, so if there is something similar it could well be that.

[Littleneckhalfshell]

"Partner - A framework designed to strengthen the deck at a point where a mast or other device or structure passes through."

(http://bewilderingstories.com/issue218/gilboy_glossary.html)

[Iron Jon]

Wiki to the rescue -

"Rope" refers to the manufactured material. Once rope is purposely sized, cut, spliced, or simply assigned a function, the result is referred to as a "line", especially in nautical usage. Sail control lines are mainly referred to as sheets(e.g. jibsheet). A halyard, for example, is a line used to raise and lower a sail, and is typically made of a length of rope with a shackle attached at one end. Other examples include clothesline, chalk line, anchor line ("rode"), stern line, fishing line, and so on.

[Mission]

Thank you, gents.

[D B Couper]

...and the Wench Line, "Hi sailor, new in town?"

[Capt. J...]

That I figure is the Bottom Line..........

[jollyjacktar]

http://www.shipbrook.net/jeff/seamansgrammar/SeamansGrammar.pdf

From John Smith's Seamans Grammar we get his interpretation of the difference between line and rope.

Chapter VI

What doth belong to the Boats and Skiffe with the defintion of all those Thirteen Ropes which are only properly called ropes belonging to a ship and the boat and their use.

The thirteen ropes are: Entering Rope, Bucket Rope, Bolt Rope, Port Rope Jeare Rope, Preventer rope, Top rope, Keel rope, Rudder rope, Cat rope, Boy Rope, Boat rope, Chest Rope.

You can find all the definitions by following the link to a PDF of the book.

Yours & co

[Mission]

Ah. This seems to allow room to doubt this labeling rope as line business. Given that I was scolded for looking for 'rope' to set up a tent, I think I was well within my rights.

Interesting that you have sounding lines and log lines. It does sound better than sounding rope and log rope.

[Iron Jon]

Ode to Rope

As I cast off for that very first time,

The "rope" in my hand has now become "line".

And hauling the sails to the top of the mast,

That "rope", now a "halyard" holds strong, taught and fast.

Then sailing in brisk winds full force on a beat.

The sails are trimmed in by that "rope" that's a "sheet".

And now at my anchorage with sails safely stowed,

I trust in that "rope" that now serves as a "rode".

Through all my life I will never lose hope,

Of a reason or time to play with a rope.

Copied from

http://www.commanderbob.com - Lt/C Barry Briggs, S, of the Durham (NC) Power Squadron wrote this ditty, which was published in the August 1999 edition of the National Power Squadron magazine, Ensign

[Capt Thighbiter]

Is there not a 'Bolt rope' also used on the sails? Seems I have read that term before.

TO the OP, who ever chastised you prolly meant well.

[Iron Jon]

The thirteen ropes are: Entering Rope, Bucket Rope, Bolt Rope, Port Rope Jeare Rope, Preventer rope, Top rope, Keel rope, Rudder rope, Cat rope, Boy Rope, Boat rope,

Smith's Sea-Man;s Grammar also mentions at least thirteen more ropes/lines such as - Breast Rope, and Standing Rope, as well as Head Lines, Furling Lines, Smiteing Lines, Bunt Lines, Clew Lines, Leech Lines, Leath Lines, Knave Lines, Crain Lines, Bow Lines, and Hoisting Lines in (Chap. V) A Description of a Ship and all her Tackling and (Chap. XV) An Alphabetical Table of Names of all the Parts and Members of a Ship.

Didn't see any reference to a tent-rope or tent-line!

[Mission]

No, it was meant as one of those reenactor-type humorous digs.

I confess, we were having our troubles setting up a tent at the time. (You can read about that in the FTPI Surgeon's Journal) and I was not in the probably not in the jolliest of tempers for accepting such humorous digs, so it sticks in the mind's craw, if you know what I mean.

[D B Couper]

I confess, we were having our troubles setting up a tent at the time.

Erecting problems? Physician heal thyself.

[Iron Jon]

Another use for Rope -

"The Dutch have a method of punishing some particular crimes by keel-hauling, viz. they take a sufficient length of rope and pass one end of it around the cut water and let it fall under the bottom, then reeve the ends at both the yard arms as before mentioned, and over-hauling the bight fix the man in the middle of it, with a deep sea-lead fastened to his heels for the purpose of sinking him clear of the ship's keel.They then run him up and let go, and allowing sufficient time for the lead to sink him deep enough, he is run up on the other side, permitting him to breathe a little, and sent a second time under the bottom; and when he has dived three times, he is hauled in, some refreshment given him, and then put to his hammock." - The Narrative of William Spavens

[James Smythe]

According to The Young Sea Officer's Sheet Anchor:

Rope is rope. When there is a specific purpose then it gets called by other names like sheet and line.

[Mission]

That's fine except several folks above (particularly Iron John) have cited examples of rope in use being called 'rope'. (Besides, that book is over 125 years past GAoP.)

[James Smythe]

That's fine except several folks above (particularly Iron John) have cited examples of rope in use being called 'rope'. (Besides, that book is over 125 years past GAoP.)

I wasn't saying that it is called something different. Rope is rope. In different uses there are different connentations. Meaning when it is used as line or sheet it has a purpose. It can still be refered to as rope. I wasn't disagreeing. I was agreeing but I should have read how I wrote it.

[D B Couper]

It's kinda like a cannon is a cannon, until it is on a ship. Then it is a gun.

[Mission]

In the version of the General History that I am reading, I find this:

“…besides, the Victory had then four Pumps at Work, and must inevitably have been lost before, had it not been for some Hand Pumps, and several Pair of Standards brought out of the Cassandra to receive and strengthen her.” (MacKlecan, p. 29)

What are "Pair of Standards"?

[Fox]

Can't help with pairs of standards I'm afraid, but somewhere round here there was a long thread about different "ropes" on a ship, which got up to about 20 different items called "something-rope" on a ship. Interestingly, while looking up standards in the index to Butler's dialogues, he refers to "standing rigging" as "standing ropes", so for the 1620s-1680s at least, there was a heckuva lot of "rope" on a ship. If you're putting up a tent and looking for the raw material then "rope" or "line" would be equally acceptable.

FWIW, a gun is a gun on land too. It's only a cannon if it's of cannon size - the exact size of a "cannon" varies, Ward's Animadversions of War gives the name to a gun firing a 64lb shot. A 32lber is a "demi-cannon", a "culverin" fires a 17 2/7lb shot, a "saker" fires a 3 1/2lb shot, etc. - but they're all "guns" whether on land or sea. It's a bit like the confusion between a cask and a barrel. Guns actually does seem to be one of those areas where terminology was important to contemporary observers: lots of sources talk about "guns", but if they use a more technical term then it's generally referring to a particular size of gun - I've never run across a "swivel-cannon" in a period source for example, because 64lbers were never mounted on swivels.

[DSiemens]

According to The Young Sea Officer's Sheet Anchor:

Rope is rope. When there is a specific purpose then it gets called by other names like sheet and line.

I agree with James. I think the key here is that every one on board is using the same language. You don't want to confuse the crew by calling a sheet a rope one time and a line another. There needs to be consistency to keep the crew efficient. Other wise yes a rope is a rope whether it's used as a bolt rope to keep the sails from tearing or stay line or a jib sheet.