Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Hi has anybody made calculations of pirates ship types? (like 45% gaop vessels were sloops, 15 slavers....etc.) my investigation leads me to point that there were most of small sloops, plenty of brigantines and some early schooner in gaop but few bigger slavers like the "Whydah" or QAR. Some pirates in gaop used even warships like Black Bart. Edited February 9, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I think I recall Ed Fox having some information about this. Of course, our information about Golden Age pirates is pretty spotty at best. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I haven't done any real analysis, but the proportion of large ships was much bigger than is generally reckoned. Cordingly has done an analysis of ships used in pirate attacks which shows just over half sloops, but only just under half square rigged ships. The method used by Cordingly meant that a lot of pirate vessels were omitted from the analysis, probably including some sloops or similar, but certainly missing the big ships commanded by Kidd, Every, and John Bowen, who were too early to fit his criteria; Roberts' later ships, three of Edward England's ships, two of Thomas Cocklyn's, John Taylor's Victory and the three-decker commanded by la Buse were omitted because they sailed on the wrong side of the Atlantic (or indeed, not in the Atlantic at all), and Major Penner's 36-gun Bonetta because it was not recorded in an attack. The interesting thing (for me) about Cordingly's analysis is that it concentrated specifically on the area where sloops were the most common vessels afloat in general, and still failed to show an overwhelming preponderance of sloops. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 And I might add that I think our information about pirates is as good or better than our information about any other comparable group. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 are there any numbers on schooners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Off the top of my head... not many at all. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yes, I would agree it is as good as any we have, but there could well be a lot of unrecorded events regarding pirates. (They probably weren't crowing about their thefts...) I am most curious what sorts of government and company documents exist regarding loss of ships. I would think those invested in a merchant vessel would want to know its fate. OTOH, when a ship disappears en route, they may have never known the cause if it was traveling through less populated places. OTOOH, from my understanding pirates generally hung around land, where I think the chances would be greater of someone who lived near where they operated would know the fate of a ship. Then again (we're running out of hands here), that someone may not have had any way to report it or known who to report it to. It seem to me that several variables existed that could result in the loss of a ship: weather, mutiny, shipwreck due to bad charts, scurvy and disease at sea... I vaguely remember you stating that the fate of many lost ships was better known that I suspected in a previous discussion we had. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Yup, the only way for a ship to disappear without trace is for everyone on board to be killed and the ship sunk, AND for all the pirates (including forced men etc) to keep their mouths shut. There may well have been incidents of that happening, but in general it was just not the way pirates operated. Mostly ships were taken, rifled for anything worth keeping, and then set free. Sometimes the crew were set free in a different ship if the pirates decided to keep theirs. At the very least, survivors from a pirate attack would have known to report it to the ship's owners or whoever employed them, and there are lots of examples of seamen just going to the first 'authorities' they find to report pirate attacks. I'm very tempted to spend an hour this evening enumerating the different sources of information on pirates, partly for my own amusement and partly to show how 'spotty' the information isn't. It used to be quite a common argument round here that "we don't really know what pirates did so we might as well make it up"... Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 By all means, enumerate. It would be a useful reference for everyone (perhaps even including yourself). You're quite right! I am going with the idea that no one was left to tell what happened, which is probably more rare than common. Of course, when it comes to details like what sort of ship they had and such, these facts may or may not have been reported. An editor in a books I read was opining that the style of period manuscripts was not to focus on some of the things that we today would like to know more about. I recall everyone being quite excited by a (rather terse) description of how a tent was put together during a careening because we didn't have much else to reference. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Hey Swashbuckler, check out this thread. Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Yup, the only way for a ship to disappear without trace is for everyone on board to be killed and the ship sunk, AND for all the pirates (including forced men etc) to keep their mouths shut. There may well have been incidents of that happening, but in general it was just not the way pirates operated. Mostly ships were taken, rifled for anything worth keeping, and then set free. Sometimes the crew were set free in a different ship if the pirates decided to keep theirs. At the very least, survivors from a pirate attack would have known to report it to the ship's owners or whoever employed them, and there are lots of examples of seamen just going to the first 'authorities' they find to report pirate attacks. I'm very tempted to spend an hour this evening enumerating the different sources of information on pirates, partly for my own amusement and partly to show how 'spotty' the information isn't. It used to be quite a common argument round here that "we don't really know what pirates did so we might as well make it up"... If i remember Right Stede Bonnet in his early career burned some ships because he did not wanted spread information about his activities. But Bonnet was far away of typical pirate since he was a gentleman, he bought his sloop and crew was paid like in merchant vessels. So I am not arguing with Foxe since I am always know that only few pirates were very gruel like Francis Spriggs or Ed Low ...Buccaneers however were more gruel and occasionally migth kill whole Spanish crew since often buccaneer leaders (privateers) despised spaniards more than anything....but when examining buccaneers national probacanda must be noted. And about schooners: If we believe Swedish BJörn Landström's ship book first real schooner was build in North-America (did i spelled that right?) in 1713 (note similar ships has been around (in Dutch usage) in 17th century onwards.) So schooner is bit more USA's revolution privateers vessel than Gaop ship, but if my memory serves me right Ed Low had someting to do with schooners and i believe that many fishing vessels or turtlers (sea turtle fishing boats) had quite similar rigging than schooners. Edited February 11, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Hey Swashbuckler, check out this thread. Oh! I was rigth about Ed Low's schooner See: "Edward Low- Fancy, Scooner 10 Guns 80 tons ....(sorry if i should have put this with same reply with other stuff).... You have a point Foxe that there were indeed many bigger ships...but number of sloops is still prominent. Edited February 10, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elena Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Pinnaces were used by pirates too, because they could enter shallow channels to hide and they were easier,more flexible to manoeuver. -A swashbuckling adventures RPG, set in 1720 in West Indies; winner of Distant Fantasies& RPG-D Member's Choice Award; RPG Conference's Originality Award; 2011 & 2012 Simming Prizes- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) I haven't done any real analysis, but the proportion of large ships was much bigger than is generally reckoned. Cordingly has done an analysis of ships used in pirate attacks which shows just over half sloops, but only just under half square rigged ships. The method used by Cordingly meant that a lot of pirate vessels were omitted from the analysis, probably including some sloops or similar, but certainly missing the big ships commanded by Kidd, Every, and John Bowen, who were too early to fit his criteria; Roberts' later ships, three of Edward England's ships, two of Thomas Cocklyn's, John Taylor's Victory and the three-decker commanded by la Buse were omitted because they sailed on the wrong side of the Atlantic (or indeed, not in the Atlantic at all), and Major Penner's 36-gun Bonetta because it was not recorded in an attack. The interesting thing (for me) about Cordingly's analysis is that it concentrated specifically on the area where sloops were the most common vessels afloat in general, and still failed to show an overwhelming preponderance of sloops. What! three-decker pirate ship...Wait was that the very same ship that had plenty of jewels and other valuables and was there some Portuguese Viseroy aboard.... or was that other vessel? Edited February 11, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 Pinnaces were used by pirates too, because they could enter shallow channels to hide and they were easier,more flexible to manoeuver. Yep there were allkind of vessels from fishing boats to Frigates or Man-of wars... "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain McCool Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'd just like to point out how thrilled I am at the fact that, for once, Fox isn't dashing our modern romantic notions of piracy upon the rocks, haha. Bring on the awesome square-rigged ships, says I! Captain Jack McCool, landlocked pirate extraordinaire, Captain of the dreaded prairie schooner Ill Repute, etc. etc. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ "That’s what a ship is, you know. It’s not just a keel, and a hull, and a deck, and sails. That’s what a ship needs. But what a ship is… what the Black Pearl really is… is freedom." -Captain Jack Sparrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Fine, to be going on with: Fancy, Henry Every, Adventure Galley, Kidd, Speaker, John Bowen Mocha, Robert Culliford Golden Fleece, Joseph Bannister Rising Sun, Thomas Cocklyn Bird/Wyndham Galley, Thomas Cocklyn Whydah, Sam Bellamy Queen Anne's Revenge, Blackbeard King James, Howell Davis Ormonde, Howell Davis New King James, Howell Davis Royal Fortune (several of), Bart Roberts Fancy, Edward England King James, Edward England Flying King, Edward England Victory, John Taylor Cassandra, John Taylor Nuestra Senora del Cabo, Oliver la Buse Eagle Galley, Richard Worley Merry Christmas, Ned Low Bonetta, Major Penner I think the question of preponderance is related to the pirates' location. Pirates in the Caribbean and on the American seaboard sometimes chose sloops because of their sailing qualities and shallow draft which was useful in the various keys and inlets. However, I think it was more to do with the fact that sloops were pretty common in that area anyway. If you cross the Atlantic to the African coast, or go further and into the Indian Ocean, there were fewer sloops operating in general and more large ships such as slavers and Indiamen. The pirates in these regions followed the general trend and chose ships over sloops. I think there are two reasons for this. Firstly, it's a simple matter of what was available: in the Americas there were some ships and loads of sloops, elsewhere there were more ships than sloops. Secondly, if the merchant ships you (as a pirate) are hunting are likely to be small sloops with a couple of guns then using a large sloop with eight guns puts you at an advantage, but once you cross the Atlantic and start trying to capture large square riggers with 20 guns, your sloop starts to look a bit small and vulnerable... Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 Fine, to be going on with: Fancy, Henry Every, Adventure Galley, Kidd, Speaker, John Bowen Mocha, Robert Culliford Golden Fleece, Joseph Bannister Rising Sun, Thomas Cocklyn Bird/Wyndham Galley, Thomas Cocklyn Whydah, Sam Bellamy Queen Anne's Revenge, Blackbeard King James, Howell Davis Ormonde, Howell Davis New King James, Howell Davis Royal Fortune (several of), Bart Roberts Fancy, Edward England King James, Edward England Flying King, Edward England Victory, John Taylor Cassandra, John Taylor Nuestra Senora del Cabo, Oliver la Buse Eagle Galley, Richard Worley Merry Christmas, Ned Low Bonetta, Major Penner I think the question of preponderance is related to the pirates' location. Pirates in the Caribbean and on the American seaboard sometimes chose sloops because of their sailing qualities and shallow draft which was useful in the various keys and inlets. However, I think it was more to do with the fact that sloops were pretty common in that area anyway. If you cross the Atlantic to the African coast, or go further and into the Indian Ocean, there were fewer sloops operating in general and more large ships such as slavers and Indiamen. The pirates in these regions followed the general trend and chose ships over sloops. I think there are two reasons for this. Firstly, it's a simple matter of what was available: in the Americas there were some ships and loads of sloops, elsewhere there were more ships than sloops. Secondly, if the merchant ships you (as a pirate) are hunting are likely to be small sloops with a couple of guns then using a large sloop with eight guns puts you at an advantage, but once you cross the Atlantic and start trying to capture large square riggers with 20 guns, your sloop starts to look a bit small and vulnerable... I believe that many of those bahama pirates in 1715-1718 used often sloops since they were good in shallow waters (and were easily available and easy to get) that there in the bahamas were but in longer voyage I would chose brigantine or frigate or slaver. In sloops cannon ports are low and in real Atlantic storm they are not in good....sloops were small so i would not dare cross oceans whith so puny vessel "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Actually when listening what Gordingly said (in some documentary...and I know that he is not always right ) he said that they were more bigger three masted ships crossing atlantic than we usually believe...Oh and he was speaking of merchants... So larger vessels were usefull in ocean crossing.... Edited February 11, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Hey, I think Foxe brings up fair and well-documented points. (I'd much rather know the truth than find myself feeding people info that is based on a story that was written 150+ years after what actually happened. ) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 OK, just for the fun of it I made a start, then gave up counting when I reached the end of the obvious sources. On my bookcase there are folders containing copies of: Newspaper Articles: 399. Indictments and depositions from the High Court of Admiralty piracy cases: 686 pages High Court of Admiraly papers relating to the St. Mary's pirate settlement: 79 pages Letters from Royal Navy captains operating in the Caribbean and American coast, 1716-1722: 165 pages Letters from Colonial Governors (Bahamas, Bermuda, Leeward Islands, St. Kitt’s, 1715-1725): 196 pages Trials: Bellamy’s crew – 25 pages Harris – 21 pages Roberts’ company – 85 pages Stede Bonnet – 50 pages Weaver, Ingrams, and Gow’s company – 7 pages John Vidal (inc. Martha Farley) – 18 pages Edward Williams (inc. Maria Critchett) – 6 pages Rackham, Vane (inc. Bonny and Read) – 59 pages John Quelch – 24 pages William Kidd – 60 pages John Baptist Jedre – 33 pages Thomas Shafto – 4 pages William Fly – 24 pages George Cusack – 8 pages Alexander Wyatt et al. – 19 pages Matthew Parry et al. – 13 pages John Auger – 13 pages Richard Hancock – 19 pages Aaron Gibbons and William Bournal – 12 pages Every’s crew – 15 pages Total, 515 pages Captive memoirs: Snelgrave – 95 pages Du Bucquoy – 15 pages Ashton – 148 pages Fillmore - 10 pages Simmons and Barlow – 11 pages Roberts – 68 pages Total: 347 pages Grand Total: 2,387 pages This total does not include the many depositions and other documents that are in odd places - for example, several depositions made by Every's crew are in the Irish State Papers. Nor does it include correspondence from any North American colonial officials, or any correspondence earlier than 1715. The letters from RN captains includes fewer than half those serving in the Americas in 1715-1725, and none at all from other theatres or earlier. No correspondence from East India Company or Royal African Company officials is included, and neither is any private business correspondence of merchants such as Humphrey Morrice whose paper include many references to pirates. At a reasonable estimate these ommitted sources are at least as numerous as those listed. Foxe"With this Fore-Staff he fansies he does Wonders, when, God knows, it amounts to no more but only to solve that simple Question, Where are we? Which every chi'd in London can tell you." - Ned Ward The Wooden World Dissected, 1707ETFox.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 OK, just for the fun of it I made a start, then gave up counting when I reached the end of the obvious sources. On my bookcase there are folders containing copies of: Newspaper Articles: 399. Indictments and depositions from the High Court of Admiralty piracy cases: 686 pages High Court of Admiraly papers relating to the St. Mary's pirate settlement: 79 pages Letters from Royal Navy captains operating in the Caribbean and American coast, 1716-1722: 165 pages Letters from Colonial Governors (Bahamas, Bermuda, Leeward Islands, St. Kitt’s, 1715-1725): 196 pages Trials: Bellamy’s crew – 25 pages Harris – 21 pages Roberts’ company – 85 pages Stede Bonnet – 50 pages Weaver, Ingrams, and Gow’s company – 7 pages John Vidal (inc. Martha Farley) – 18 pages Edward Williams (inc. Maria Critchett) – 6 pages Rackham, Vane (inc. Bonny and Read) – 59 pages John Quelch – 24 pages William Kidd – 60 pages John Baptist Jedre – 33 pages Thomas Shafto – 4 pages William Fly – 24 pages George Cusack – 8 pages Alexander Wyatt et al. – 19 pages Matthew Parry et al. – 13 pages John Auger – 13 pages Richard Hancock – 19 pages Aaron Gibbons and William Bournal – 12 pages Every’s crew – 15 pages Total, 515 pages Captive memoirs: Snelgrave – 95 pages Du Bucquoy – 15 pages Ashton – 148 pages Fillmore - 10 pages Simmons and Barlow – 11 pages Roberts – 68 pages Total: 347 pages Grand Total: 2,387 pages This total does not include the many depositions and other documents that are in odd places - for example, several depositions made by Every's crew are in the Irish State Papers. Nor does it include correspondence from any North American colonial officials, or any correspondence earlier than 1715. The letters from RN captains includes fewer than half those serving in the Americas in 1715-1725, and none at all from other theatres or earlier. No correspondence from East India Company or Royal African Company officials is included, and neither is any private business correspondence of merchants such as Humphrey Morrice whose paper include many references to pirates. At a reasonable estimate these ommitted sources are at least as numerous as those listed. there is some bedtime reading "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Share Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) That is still splendid starting point to any Gaop pirate research. Edited February 12, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mission Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Say, if you come across items related to surgery... Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swashbuckler 1700 Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Some minor perusal suggest to me that brigantines were really popular vessels (E.G. one of Vane's or Roberts' ). do all agree? BTW I have found whole book "pirate ship 1660-1730 on the wed (it is not very good I can tell) there Edmund/ Cristopher Condent's vessel is two masted sloop but do we know that what was reality (it BTW has that faulty Jolly Roger Constam has been fooled.... )? Edited March 21, 2012 by Swashbuckler 1700 "I have not yet Begun To Fight!"John Paul Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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