Korisios Posted December 13, 2011 Share Posted December 13, 2011 Today I bought some bits of 100% white and black silk for making cravats. I had a choise between very fine and soft and a litle more coarse with some irregularities and aparently stiffer fabric... I wend for the coarser one thinking it would be more period, but already while walking out of the store I realised that this fabric would not fall and fold as fluid as the cravats seen on the old paintings and drawings. Only the other silk in the store looked so finely and perfectly woven that I doubted that this could be made in the old (1700) days, or could it??? Any thoughts anyone?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jendobyns Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Very fine silks were the thing. Slubs and irregularities meant poor quality. They were capable of very fine silk from somewhere in Italy in the middle ages, iirc. I'd have to look up the details of the silk industry in England, but I think it dates from early 17C or even late Tudor period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 Okay it's back to the store then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Yes silk with slubs and irregularites in silk would be considered of poor quality. Stay away frm silk duponi, silk taffeta is correct for GAoP. Of course this only matters if your trying for period correctness. Also something to consider for cravats and such if very fine linen called cambric or lawn. I haven't been able to find really good sheer linen yet, one without many slubs. Fabric store.com has some 2.5oz linen that isnt terrible. Add some lace and you'd have a very nice cravat indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 Hi Jack, first yes the aim is towards period correctness. So every info about how to get authentic is most welcome! I had to look for the difference between dupioni and taffeta using Google images, and look the two terms up on the internet to get an idea about what it would be in Dutch, so I can harras the shopkeepers here in Holland with those two terms and see if they know what their talking about... always fun (or frustrating :angry: ...) Could you tell me if Taffeta is soft and fluent, in it's folds and wrinkels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 funny thing is about the linen, that in holland the fabric "cambric" appears the be called by the the family name of it's inventor so it's Batist from Baptiste de Cambray (according to wiki)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jendobyns Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Hi Jack, first yes the aim is towards period correctness. So every info about how to get authentic is most welcome! I had to look for the difference between dupioni and taffeta using Google images, and look the two terms up on the internet to get an idea about what it would be in Dutch, so I can harras the shopkeepers here in Holland with those two terms and see if they know what their talking about... always fun (or frustrating :angry: ...) Could you tell me if Taffeta is soft and fluent, in it's folds and wrinkels? No, taffeta is not soft and fluid, it's rather crisp. Kind of like tissue paper, but a bit heavier, it feels rather "crunchy" to the hand. Silk the right weight is funny, you have to stitch it fairly loosely, 6-8 stitches per inch, or you can tear it along the sewing line like perforated paper. This gown is from the 1750's, but the point is that you can see the drape and weight of silk taffeta: http://www.kci.or.jp/archives/digital_archives/detail_6_e.html Cambric and lawn would really be better, because they stand up to the laundering necessary for a piece of neckwear. Holland is also a term for fine linnen, iirc, but I don't remember the weight exactly, and I sort of shop by hand and eye. I will try to check tomorrow when things settle down and I can get to my books. Really, the details you are looking for could show up in period probate inventories, if you can access any from the area you are in currently. Then the terminology you use with the shopkeepers might become easier. I can ask a German friend who is multi-lingual if she knows what you should ask for (she also does period clothing and research) but I'm not sure it will help. Burnley and Trowbridge in the US can also send you samples, which you could use to take shopping with you, just remember that samples are likely to still have sizing in them, so will be a bit stiffer than after the fabric is washed. Try the finer department stores, also, where they carry high end decorator fabrics. Do you have a Galerie Lafayette? i think they might be useful (if expensive, but all you need is a fraction of a meter). I seem to remember they had really good fabrics in the Berlin store (but it could have been somewhere else, it's been a while). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jendobyns Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Yes silk with slubs and irregularites in silk would be considered of poor quality. Stay away frm silk duponi, silk taffeta is correct for GAoP. Of course this only matters if your trying for period correctness. Also something to consider for cravats and such if very fine linen called cambric or lawn. I haven't been able to find really good sheer linen yet, one without many slubs. Fabric store.com has some 2.5oz linen that isnt terrible. Add some lace and you'd have a very nice cravat indeed. Cool, you mean their 2.5 oz isn't like cheesecloth now? Last time I bought that weight from them that's what it looked like. Not fine at all, but wonderful stuff anyway. I'll have to order a swatch and see what it's like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the info again. Amazing how a "simple" thing as a cravat can get complicated. I am aiming towards this style of cravat to start with: And I whas thinking of making it out of silk. I have also a nice broad piece of lace for the ends, but would a fine linen then be a better choise? Edited December 25, 2011 by Korisios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Yes the weave is not real tight but but from examples I've seen of other period cravats it was a more open weave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jendobyns Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Yes the weave is not real tight but but from examples I've seen of other period cravats it was a more open weave. Do you have any links to examples? I'd love to see them before making ones for my husband! The ones I saw weren't necessarily very tightly woven, but the threads were very fine. This fabric I got wasn't. I have a very fine linen shift that has just about finished it's life as a shift I'm thinking of cannibalizing for ruffles and cravats for my husband. Again, not extremely tightly woven, but fine threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O90062/cravat/ Here is the one I was thinking of. It's a little tighter of a weave than the 2.5oz linen from Fabric-Store but it's the closest I've been able to find thus far. And it's cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O83311/dolls-neckerchief-lord-claphams-neckerchief/ A close up of the dolls neckerchief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korisios Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 http://collections.v.../O90062/cravat/ Here is the one I was thinking of. It's a little tighter of a weave than the 2.5oz linen from Fabric-Store but it's the closest I've been able to find thus far. And it's cheap. Verry interresting, thanks for the find/link also the measurements are interresting are their all about the same size or are their differences? I hope you people don't mind me picking your brains all the time. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Roberts Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Hey no problem at all. I just noticed your question about the taffeta. I'm not sure as I have yet to work with the material. I'm still on the hunt for "real" cambric or lawn linen. Everything I've found has been cotton but in revisiting the V&A site and that cravat, they claim it's of cotton content.... So I dunno maybe it can be cotton. I have to look into this further. For now I use the 2.5 oz linen, until something better shows up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Here's another goodie... find belgium cotton fabric. Oddly, it mimics the fine, smooth, sheer silk. It's hard to find and expensive but worth it! it's so very lovely and perfect. I couldn't find a good silk that fit my standards, so the belgium cotton was my next best possibility. Besides, it does look just like the fabric of those cravats shown above. Another I have noticed is silks often varied, some had cotton interwoven into them. Guess... it would depend upon your persona. Just keep your eyes open. It's been interesting to see what stores have. I don't even try online because.. if I can't see it and feel it, forget it! ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silas thatcher Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 the one thing i have learned about period clothes is that people were capable of producing very fine cloth and clothing to match !! very fine furniture, jewelry and the like were also made at the time and lots earlier... jsut because it is old does not by any means make it crude and "old looking" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyBarbossa Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well said, Silas. Besides, a few surviving pieces have shown us that some have been altered to fit the fashion as it progressed. ~Lady B Tempt Fate! an' toss 't all t' Hell!" "I'm completely innocent of whatever crime I've committed." The one, the only,... the infamous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jendobyns Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Here's a good visual (albiet a bit later period) of just how fine linen could be made: http://www.nyhistory.org/node/22076 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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