Red_Dawn Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 This is more out of curiosity than anything, but you've seen those ball and chains in the cartoons, on prisoner costumes, wedding cakes,etc. Were they used in our era anywhere? Thanks!
Louisiana Jeff Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 The only punishments were the dark cells for inmates who broke prison regulations, and the ball and chain for those who tried to escape. Arizona prison built in 1876. LINK
Jas. Hook Posted August 27, 2011 Posted August 27, 2011 "A ball and chain is a physical restraint device historically used on prisoners, from the 1880s to the 1940s." Interesting... Wiki dates them as much later than the GAoP. 1880's on, maybe they were trying to use up left over stocks of cannonballs from the Civil War, a sort of an antebellum recycling program. Jas. Hook "Born on an island, live on an island... the sea has always been in my blood." Jas. Hook "You can't direct the wind . . . but . . . you can adjust the sails." "Don't eat the chickens with writing on their beaks." Governor Sawney
Red_Dawn Posted August 28, 2011 Author Posted August 28, 2011 So the consesus is ball and chains aren't period. Thanks, guys! Arizona prison built in 1876. LINK I live in Arizona. You definitely wouldn't want to try dragging a ball and chain across the desert. 1880's on, maybe they were trying to use up left over stocks of cannonballs from the Civil War, a sort of an antebellum recycling program. Well, we only fought one Civil War battle here.
Mission Posted August 29, 2011 Posted August 29, 2011 The notion that they were made from unused cannonballs seems as likely as any explanation - you need something to make it tough for someone to escape, but still allow them to to have some mobility. A heavy spherical object is ideal. So it could easily have been someone had a problem, looked at a stack of currently unused cannonballs and decided to weld a chain on one and see how it worked. Once an idea is successfully used, word-of-mouth spreads. Soon the concept outgrows the initial inspiration and the thing is being tailored to the need rather than being cobbled together from spare parts. That may be how how they wound up in Arizona if they didn't originally come from there. We can't really date the first one, so we can't say the first one did or didn't come from Arizona. (I'm just guessing without doing any research, but the pattern of successful idea adoption has a definite pattern which is seen repeatedly throughout history.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Red_Dawn Posted August 29, 2011 Author Posted August 29, 2011 That may be how how they wound up in Arizona if they didn't originally come from there. We can't really date the first one, so we can't say the first one did or didn't come from Arizona. (I'm just guessing without doing any research, but the pattern of successful idea adoption has a definite pattern which is seen repeatedly throughout history.) I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply the ball and chain was invented in Arizona; I was playing off Jas. Hook's comment about cannonball recycling.
Mission Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply the ball and chain was invented in Arizona; I was playing off Jas. Hook's comment about cannonball recycling. The Arizona comment predated the Wiki estimated dates, so I thought it was the earliest example in this discussion. This is the sort of thing that was probably an invention of convenience and thus the first person to do it/place it was done may forever be unknown. (That and most people probably don't care enough to try and track the original source of the idea down.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
Jas. Hook Posted August 30, 2011 Posted August 30, 2011 That may be how how they wound up in Arizona if they didn't originally come from there. We can't really date the first one, so we can't say the first one did or didn't come from Arizona. (I'm just guessing without doing any research, but the pattern of successful idea adoption has a definite pattern which is seen repeatedly throughout history.) I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply the ball and chain was invented in Arizona; I was playing off Jas. Hook's comment about cannonball recycling. Red Dawn - Don't know who came up with the idea first or where but the ball and chain restraint shown in the AZ Parks clip has what looks like what might be a fuse hole in it. Whether it is original or a later dated prop for display, who knows, maybe the device was invented by Sheriff Joe Arpaio's great great granddad . Jas. Hook "Born on an island, live on an island... the sea has always been in my blood." Jas. Hook "You can't direct the wind . . . but . . . you can adjust the sails." "Don't eat the chickens with writing on their beaks." Governor Sawney
Mission Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 OK, this is off-topic, but ball and chain reminded me of it. I was entering Dionis' description of Bleeding from his book A Course of Chirurgical Operations Demonstrated in the Royal Garden at Paris. He says this, "I have observed, that when I have bled married Men before their Wives, these Ladies would never allow me to draw much Blood and on the other side, when I have bled Women in the Presence of their Husbands, the Men never thought that I took away enough: Both of them have their Reasons, which are not very hard to be guessed." (Dionis, p. 373) Personally, I'm not very sure I can guess at their reasons, but it sounds funny. (Bleeding too much could made you weak or make you faint.) Mycroft: "My brother has the brain of a scientist or a philosopher, yet he elects to be a detective. What might we deduce about his heart?" John: "I don't know." Mycroft: "Neither do I. But initially he wanted to be a pirate."
MarkG Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 They are period. One was found in the Thames that was dated to the 17th or 18th century. It is believed to have been locked on a prisoner who tried to escape. See here.
Jas. Hook Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 MarkG - Interesting, now that looks like it'll blows Wiki's description/date out of the water. Good find! Jas. Hook "Born on an island, live on an island... the sea has always been in my blood." Jas. Hook "You can't direct the wind . . . but . . . you can adjust the sails." "Don't eat the chickens with writing on their beaks." Governor Sawney
Red_Dawn Posted September 4, 2011 Author Posted September 4, 2011 They are period. One was found in the Thames that was dated to the 17th or 18th century. It is believed to have been locked on a prisoner who tried to escape. See here. Cool! And ow, that spike looks wicked! Whether it is original or a later dated prop for display, who knows, maybe the device was invented by Sheriff Joe Arpaio's great great granddad . Looks like it wasn't after all. Sheriff Arpaio would've made 'em wear pink bloomers under their stripey suits, though.
Littleneckhalfshell Posted September 5, 2011 Posted September 5, 2011 one of the comments on the ball & chain from the Thames was that there was something fishy about the 'chain' The 'chain' was of the 'curb chain' type rather than 'cable chain'. The curb chain is a style that lays flat, due to the twist of the individual links, (think of how a dog choke collar chain is made). Cable patterned chain is where you have links that are flat, but are alternatly 90% in relation to each other. I tried to do a search on when curb chain came into use for utilitarian items (outside of jewelry that is) and was unable to come up with any information. The chain in the picture of the Thames ball & chain was curb chain. Does anyone know of depictions of, or other dated artifacts showing 'curb chain'? No Fear Have Ye of Evil Curses says you... Aye,... Properly Warned Ye Be says I
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