Queue (hair) Wrappings?

[MadL]

You have seen them in the movies, you have seen them in paintings and woodcarvings; the short braid or tail worn on the back of the head. But how do they Wrap them in black?

I have read that some sailors used eel skin as it be water proof and the purpose of wrapping the queue was to prevent the salt from the ocean spray from building in the braid then drying out and becoming abrasive on the neck. I have read that landlubbers and gents would wrap them with silk ribbon or cloth, there is even one mention of a "silk pouch" being used that would cover the whole queue including the tip.

But what I can not find is just HOW the wrap would be made, sure enough to last the whole day (and while working on and below deck) without it coming all undone??

I have tried wrapping from the bottom up and using the ends for the top bow - no good, it unwraps from the bottom, kinda walks itself up then unwraps once loosened.....

Does anyone know, have leads to detailed information, or perhaps know a period wig maker that may know this mystery? I am sure someone today knows, just look at all the wrapped queues in the movies (Master and Commander, Damn the Defiant, Horatio Hornblower, and such)

[adam cyphers]

i was just wondering the same thing the other day.i hope someone knows :)

[Jas. Hook]

Good question MadL

It seems that tar may have been used historically in some applications. For our lifestyles, ye hair gooped with tar might be frightful thought. For an event perhaps an small application of spirit gum might hold a ribbon in place for the day or two. I haven't tried it, just a thought.

Jas. Hook

Order of the Slipping Hair Band

Fashion Encyclopedia

Pigtails and Ramillies

The fashion of wearing large, curled wigs in the eighteenth century was impractical for some men. Soldiers developed a unique style that gave them the appearance of long, flowing, curly hair, but allowed them to be active. The style was the pigtail, or queue. Pigtails could be styled in many different ways. Commonly pigtails hung loose from a black ribbon knotted at the back of the head, but they could also be braided, smeared with tar, or completely hidden beneath a tightly wrapped ribbon or fabric pouch. Although the first military pigtails were fashioned from the wearers' own hair, later styles were made of wigs, called campaign wigs. The Ramillies wig, a version of the campaign wig that became a popular style among soldiers throughout the The Ramillies wig featured a long pigtail tied with black ribbons at its top and bottom. Courtesy of the . century, was named after a British victory over the French in 1706 during the War of Spanish Succession (1701–14). The Ramillies wig featured a long pigtail tied with a black tie at the top and another at the bottom of the pigtail. Throughout the eighteenth century, pigtails of all sorts were covered in flour or another white powder to create the white hair so popular during the century.

Read more: Pigtails and Ramillies - Fashion, Costume, and Culture: Clothing, Headwear, Body Decorations, and Footwear through the Ages http://www.fashionencyclopedia.com/fashion_costume_culture/European-Culture-18th-Century/Pigtails-and-Ramillies.html#ixzz1FtGX1iNf

[Mission]

Not to turn this into an advert thread, but why try to make one yourself? I got one made by Madam Joan for something like $25 or $30. I sent her a sample of my hair and she matched it and made me a queue. It's lasted for 5 or 6 outings so far. (The only problem with it is that the braid has become somewhat messy with stray hairs poking out of the braid and I don't have the wherewithal to learn how to re-braid it. Plus I like it sort of ratty and unraveled - it fits my concept of a pirate-captured surgeon.)

[jendobyns]

I seem to remember this conversation going on in another forum (RevList, perhaps), so I'll try to track it down. I also seem to remember a discussion about pomade (which may serve instead of tar). Pomade is still available in some places (like styling salons) and these days comes in a variety of colors (not that a self respecting Pirate would be caught dead with purple hair )

[MajorChaos]

My hair is long enough to be braided and I've seen the queues mentioned in movies and read about in books (historical fiction stuff). I've wondered what and how the queues where made too. I can usually get one of the ladies in our camp to braid my hair and I have them do that very tight to last a few days. I was thinking I'd get a two or three foot piece of ribbon silk or probably scrap linen and have them start at the top of the braid (closest to me head) and just wrap the braid very tightly down the length and then back up to the top. Finishing it with a bow tie. Maybe if needed, get a small string and tie of the tip in a bow to try an prevent it from riding up the braid, but I think if the wrap is tight enough it won't ride up.

Just a thought

[PoD]

I wonder what the fabric pouch looked like? Thats definately a good option if ever i needed to hide my dreadlocks at an event.

[jendobyns]

Check out plates 436 and 437 in Diderot, under "The Wigmaker"

Styles changed, and this is late, but this might be a starting point. The basic bag (I think they were called "bag wigs") looks fairly simple. Sort of a draw-string pouch, with a big bow stitched to the outside, it probably covers the wrinkly draw-string part.

Ah, here's a copy of plate 436 at the top of this article: http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/111.3/kwass.html

I wonder what the fabric pouch looked like? Thats definately a good option if ever i needed to hide my dreadlocks at an event.

[jendobyns]

OK, I know there was a discussion on the Revlist before they changed servers in 1999. Can't figure out how to access the info on the previous server, though. But there was one post in the newer forum, which I will share with you here, regarding the making of a queue. It's later, so no guarantee of accuracy for GAoP.

Recently there was some discussion on the list about how British

soldiers wore their hair during the AWI. The following is from just after the

AWI and is from Memoirs of the Military Career of John Shipp, late a lieutenant

in His Majesty's 87th Regiment. Shipp entered the British Army as a ranker and

was one a relatively small number who eventually achieved commissioned rank.

His remembrances of his early days in the ranks are interesting even though

they are a few years after the period of the AWI.

In the following excerpt Shipp gives us a lot of detail about the

military queue and how the results were obtained.

"After this I went into town, to purchase a few requisites, such as a

powder-bag, puff, soap, candles, grease &c.; and , having procured what I stood

in need of, I returned to my barrack, where I underwent the operation of having

my hair tied for the first time, to the no small amusement of all the boys

assembled. A large piece of candle -grease was applied, first to the sides of

my head, then to the hind long hair; after this the same kind of operation was

performed with nasty stinking soap ___ sometimes the man who was dressing me

applying his knuckles, instead of the soap, to the delight of the surrounding

boys, who were bursting their sides with laughter, to see the tears roll down

my cheeks. When this operation was over, I had to go through one of a more

serious nature. A large pad, or bag filled with sand, was poked into the back

of my head, round which the hair was gathered tight, and the whole tied round

with a leather thong. When I was dressed for parade, I could scarcely get my

eyelids to perform their office; the skin of my eyes and face was drawn so

tight by the plug that was stuck in the back of my head, that I could not

possibly shut my eyes; and to this, an enormous high stock was poked under my

chin; so that , altogether, I felt as stiff as if I had swallowed a ramrod, or

a sergeant's halberd. Shortly after I was thus equipped, dinner was served;

but my poor jaws refused to act on the offensive, and when I made an attempt

to eat, my pad behind went up and down like a sledge-hammer."

Shipp's remarks about the high leather stock may not be appropriate to

the AWI since the year in which Shipp enlisted was 1795. There were certainly

changes in the uniform between the end of the AWI and 1795 as we all know. I

would be surprised, however, if the manner of forming the military queue had

really changed much at all by that time. The radical changes in how the

British Army were required to wear their hair was still some years away.

[MadL]

Mission: What for would I want'a "make one m'self" when I have already Grown one m'self in Proper period style...honestly I am not sure that pirates, or others of the period actually "made" one themselves, more likely they purchased, stole, or otherwise accosted a wig if they could not grow one themselves. I recall some readings that some men just shaved their heads and wore wigs simply because it kept the lice away as well..but ne'r heard o' one that 'made' he's own wig...unless perhaps he twas a wig maker already.

MajorChaos: I was thinking of using a longer piece as well, but my queue is not all that thick as it grows only off the back o me neck, not from the sides (I also gotta please them cor-pirates as well ye knows) so thinner must be the better fer me....I have seen many on screen but never one I can zoom in on to see how they done it.

PoD: I will have to see if I can find the link that mentioned it, there was actually a 'period' name for such a silken pouch...one place I think I actually saw one in use was in the movie "Buccaneer", worn by the evil governor and can be seen in at least one scene. Basically it be just a thin lacy silk pouch with ties on the end, drop yer queue inside and tie th' ends (at yer head side)

just read further and saw jendobyns' statement; yup, that be th' Bagwig I mentioned.

Ok, jendobyns' seems to have a good one about the pain the British soldiers went through...but how can we reproduce this with such extreme....

[jendobyns]

I suspect if you took the element of "hazing" out of it it wouldn't be so bad Kind of like some of the procedures we ladies go through in the salon

Ok, jendobyns' seems to have a good one about the pain the British soldiers went through...but how can we reproduce this with such extreme....

[theM.A.dDogge]

the silk bags are quite simple really....and were even for the NON HAIRED INDOWED...as many would even be "stuffed" as it were to give the impression of more hair

many of the ques wer actually long braids then doublled back...then tied with ribbon...again giving the impression of MORE hair...but since it was doubled back it would lend itself for better purchase for the ribbon than just the braid itself...have worn both kinds for sometime now and have had very little issure with them comming undone

[MadL]

Aye M.A.d'Dogge, the sack would be fine enough, and the doubling of one's hair does lend fer a fuller look, however I intend t' keep mine at about 6inch and want t' pursue the tied look.

If anyone knows how th' profishonal hair dressers do it kindly let me know.

[jendobyns]

If there is any chance that you will be attending the Market Fair at Fort Frederick (April 29-May 1st , iirc) in Big Pool, MD, you might be able to talk to the wigmaker of Williamsburg (Betty Myers) about it. Hopefully someone will sort it out for you before then *g*

Aye M.A.d'Dogge, the sack would be fine enough, and the doubling of one's hair does lend fer a fuller look, however I intend t' keep mine at about 6inch and want t' pursue the tied look.

If anyone knows how th' profishonal hair dressers do it kindly let me know.

[Fox]

I hate to pee on cornflakes, but can anyone point me to a picture or reference to a GAoP era sailor (or other) with queued hair?

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I have found that tying the hair back with a strand of hemp rope works excelently. Simply wrap about a foot of hemp around the tuft of hair a few times and tie a bow. I did this for a while and was emensley pleased for two reasons.

1. Rope will be found on a ship, this is historically plausible and very likely

2. If made tight enough, and wraped enough, the friction of rope on rope will keep it tied the entire day.

[MadL]

Commodore Greyhound, that is pretty much to what I do now, however I use a strand of thin tared hemp (about kite string size) and just wrap it up from the tuft about 6 or 7 wraps then thread it back down (with a needle, actually my girlfriend does it) and then tie it off at the beginning in a knot. I then use a strip of black linen to tie the bow at the top of the braid.

But I would like to figure out a way to properly wrap the whole braid in cloth, and still have the bow, attached or not, tied at the top.

Fox: don't think I have ever seen any pictures from the GAoP specifically but the queue has been around through many cultures since nearly the beginning of time, and worn in many many different styles...perhaps not specifically "British", "French", or "Spanish", but I am pretty sure they were not the only ones on the waters during GAoP, or aboard a pirate ship. I am pretty sure you have seen many of ancient Chinese wearing a queue. And there was one document I read some years ago that described a period when the British Navy in its early days had troubles with some sailors, as I recall they where trying to get more organized (with uniforms and such) and when the order was given for the men to cut their queues they "nearly had a revolt on their hands"....can't recall just when or where I had read that. But braids, pony tails and such have long been worn by men throughout history and cultures. If you read up on the history of wigs you will find a lot about the era's fascination with long hair, curls, and ribbons dating back as far as Queen Elizabeth herself.

[Capt. Bo of the WTF co.]

How d'ye wear yer hair

does yer hair hang low

do ye wear it in a ribbon

do ye tie it in a bow

do ye throw it o'er yer shoulder

like a Continental soldier

does yer haaaair haaaang looooow

Sorry, but when I saw this thread

the tune just started playin' in me 'ead.

now would a good time

for me to go to bed.

Bo

[Guest]

Off topic.....

How d'ye wear yer hair

does yer hair hang low

do ye wear it in a ribbon

do ye tie it in a bow

do ye throw it o'er yer shoulder

like a Continental soldier

does yer haaaair haaaang looooow

Sorry, but when I saw this thread

the tune just started playin' in me 'ead.

now would a good time

for me to go to bed.

Hey... I know that song ... well ... but when I heard it.... well it was just a bit differently... (and a little bit dirtier... )

[Fox]

Fox: don't think I have ever seen any pictures from the GAoP specifically but the queue has been around through many cultures since nearly the beginning of time, and worn in many many different styles...perhaps not specifically "British", "French", or "Spanish", but I am pretty sure they were not the only ones on the waters during GAoP, or aboard a pirate ship. I am pretty sure you have seen many of ancient Chinese wearing a queue. And there was one document I read some years ago that described a period when the British Navy in its early days had troubles with some sailors, as I recall they where trying to get more organized (with uniforms and such) and when the order was given for the men to cut their queues they "nearly had a revolt on their hands"....can't recall just when or where I had read that. But braids, pony tails and such have long been worn by men throughout history and cultures. If you read up on the history of wigs you will find a lot about the era's fascination with long hair, curls, and ribbons dating back as far as Queen Elizabeth herself.

Certainly, I have no problem with anyone portraying a Chinese pirate or Victorian sailor wearing a queue.

But in the original post you asked about a very specific hair style (short queue wrapped in black), and the correct way to obtain it. All of the advice (and good advice it is too) has been based on a later period interpretation. It may well be that there isn't a 'correct' GAoP way of doing it.

[Mission]

No one wore hair queues in the GAoP?

[Slopmaker Cripps]

No one wore hair queues in the GAoP?

Doesn't seem to be any evidence for it until the later decades of the 18th century among seamen. I'm with Fox, we'd be really interested if someone could provide a primary source of queues that early, but he hasn't found anything, nor have I.

-Adam C.

[Fox]

No one wore hair queues in the GAoP?

Define hair queues.

If you mean, effectively, a pony tail, then yes, there are probably GAoP era references (though I struggle off the top of my head).

If you mean the solid pony tail, usually black, seen on all self-respecting sailors in old movies (as implied in the original post), then they seem very much to be a later fashion.

[michaelsbagley]

What about "bagged" hair? I gave seen references to that in military (I know, not sailors) manuals dating to the first decade of the 1700s.

[Mission]

No, I mean non-attached (to the skull) hair queues as seen, let us say, on working landsman, let us say, as a trained surgeon?