Knee Pistols, first evidence?

[Commodore Swab]

Any idea when these first started showing up as well as when they became more commonplace?

[Cascabel]

I think it may be a matter of "where", rather than "when". Most, but certainly not all of the examples of old originals of this type that I have encountered are of North African or Middle Eastern origin. Of course, trade existed between the Mediterranean area and the rest of the world, so the style was not unknown elsewhere. European made examples usually have more traditional proportions.

They often were made incorporating European made locks salvaged from older weapons, and there was always a thriving gun parts trade going on also, so one must be careful when evaluating some of these things as to origin and age. You can't just go by the markings on the lock when looking at old guns. Style of decoration, proofmarks, matching quality of all parts, fit and construction of parts, etc. all need to be looked at to reach a conclusion. This discussion may be better served in the "Lock Stock and Barrel" section.

>>>>> Cascabel

[Commodore Swab]

Feel free to move it, from my research the "stock" employed is used to be braced against the knee. Many appear to be post GAoP employing many different kinds of lock although almost all are a blunderbuss barrel which is very short. Is it fair to assume they may of taken older locks and fabricated barrels and stocks for their application? If not where did the barrels come from?

[Cascabel]

Feel free to move it, from my research the "stock" employed is used to be braced against the knee. Many appear to be post GAoP employing many different kinds of lock although almost all are a blunderbuss barrel which is very short. Is it fair to assume they may of taken older locks and fabricated barrels and stocks for their application? If not where did the barrels come from?

The barrels of the ones I have examined always looked to be locally made, even if the locks were salvage items. The locks often were also locally made, but not usually of the same quality as European locks. If you look at the example you posted with the fancy carved stock carefully, you will notice that the cock is not even of sufficient reach for the flint to contact the frizzen !! Compare it to the other examples. If that was the original cock, it could not ever have fired.

Many of the firearms from the region are very crudely made, but some are also of excellent quality. Some fancy weapons from the Mediterranean area, including even ornate daggers that were not even sharpened were apparently intended to be "gentlemanly jewelry" to look good with some of the elaborate outfits worn by the rich. I have seen a lot of crudely made blades with very fancy handles and scabbards intended to be worn just "for show".

Many of these short blunderbuss type barrels had a bore that tapered for the full length, which would render them very inefficient as firearms, as the pressure of the charge would push past the shot as the bore increased in size, greatly reducing the power. A properly made blunderbuss barrel is straight bored for most of it's length, and then flares toward the muzzle. A lot of the Mediterranean type blunderbusses also have quite an exaggerated amount of flare to the barrels, which is typical of the region.

Be aware also of the REALLY crude pieces that were produced in the last hundred years or so strictly for the tourist trade. A lot of inexperienced collectors get cheated out of their money on these things !!

>>>> Cascabel

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

How long are these? And would it be practical to strap one to your thigh? Looks like you could with a couple of them.

[Cascabel]

As I understand it, these things were actually intended as horsemen's weapons. The idea being that they were larger and more powerful than ordinary pistols, and able to be used one-handed. One hand being required to control the horse, and the weapon being steadied by bracing it against the thigh.

One-handed use on horseback makes a lot more sense than any other explanation for the design. Steadying the aim, rather than than absorbing recoil being the point. Bracing against the leg while standing would be a bit awkward in my opinion, and not really necessary to absorb recoil if both hands were free to control the weapon.

>>>>> Cascabel

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

As I understand it, these things were actually intended as horsemen's weapons. The idea being that they were larger and more powerful than ordinary pistols, and able to be used one-handed. One hand being required to control the horse, and the weapon being steadied by bracing it against the thigh.

One-handed use on horseback makes a lot more sense than any other explanation for the design. Steadying the aim, rather than than absorbing recoil being the point. Bracing against the leg while standing would be a bit awkward in my opinion, and not really necessary to absorb recoil if both hands were free to control the weapon.

>>>>> Cascabel

Ok.... but what i meant was, would it be practical to get a holster, and strap it to your thigh. Would you be able to Draw it? Would it be difficult to pull it it out? They're basically blunderbusses, but a little shorter than some of the ones I've seen for sale. That's what got me wondering.

[Cascabel]

As I understand it, these things were actually intended as horsemen's weapons. The idea being that they were larger and more powerful than ordinary pistols, and able to be used one-handed. One hand being required to control the horse, and the weapon being steadied by bracing it against the thigh.

One-handed use on horseback makes a lot more sense than any other explanation for the design. Steadying the aim, rather than than absorbing recoil being the point. Bracing against the leg while standing would be a bit awkward in my opinion, and not really necessary to absorb recoil if both hands were free to control the weapon.

>>>>> Cascabel

Ok.... but what i meant was, would it be practical to get a holster, and strap it to your thigh. Would you be able to Draw it? Would it be difficult to pull it it out? They're basically blunderbusses, but a little shorter than some of the ones I've seen for sale. That's what got me wondering.

It would be quite possible, but in my opinion, not very practical. They are fairly heavy and kinda "clunky". The barrels are only about a foot or so long. I guess to some people, there would be a certain "wow factor", but it's not something I would do myself. If I was to carry one of these, I would prefer to carry it attached to a strap so as to hang by my side like the old 1920's gangsters carried their sawed-off shotguns under their coats.

I think carrying a couple of them in leg holsters is sorta like having a half-dozen or so full sized dragoon pistols hanging on you. Kinda clownish looking to me, but to each his own......

>>>>> Cascabel

[MarkG]

How long are these? And would it be practical to strap one to your thigh? Looks like you could with a couple of them.

I don't think I have seen any period representations of guns strapped to someone's thigh. That is more of a mid-to-late 19th century thing. In the GAoP people tended to stick their pistols into their belt or to wear a baldric to hold them. I have seen one period woodcut of a pirate with several holsters fastened to a baldric. The alternative is to use belt hooks.

[theM.A.dDogge]

How long are these? And would it be practical to strap one to your thigh? Looks like you could with a couple of them.

I don't think I have seen any period representations of guns strapped to someone's thigh. That is more of a mid-to-late 19th century thing. In the GAoP people tended to stick their pistols into their belt or to wear a baldric to hold them. I have seen one period woodcut of a pirate with several holsters fastened to a baldric. The alternative is to use belt hooks.

the only evidence i have ever seen of anything strapped to the thigh was in the Golden Age of Movie Westerns...where some of the actors had tennis elbow and could pull the pistol from the waist

tho tieing the peice to yur torso or even wrist seems to have been done for centurys (saves dropping them from the horse or even ship"...the Jacobytes wore a strap of leather round one shoulder and neck to carry their pistols, many pirates and sailors for boarding actions were thought to where ribbons round their neck....even carbines (while on horseback had a rope sling over a shoulder as to not drop it)

so in short....i am thinking i agree with Cascabel about a sling to the side rather than anything tied to yur thigh

unless yur doing Steampunk...then probably quite appropriate!?!

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

The reason I ask is i'd like to get me hands on a blunderbuss and I'm trying to think of the most practical way to carry it, when not having it out. I know two pirates who carry their blunderbusses in arrow quivers strapped to their backs. I saw these saw the were shorter and wondered about it. But I do know holsters at the side were more common to late 1800s in the 'Wild West'.

[wes1761]

I tied an old finger woven sash on mine and made a "sling" of sorts for woods walks and club shoots. These most likely would have been in a pistol bucket on the saddle or weapons crate/locker on a ship.....

[MarkG]

I tied an old finger woven sash on mine and made a "sling" of sorts for woods walks and club shoots. These most likely would have been in a pistol bucket on the saddle or weapons crate/locker on a ship.....

I think that a shoulder sling would be the best solution.

[Commodore Swab]

Heres the last one I built (sold) when I carried it and used it I simply tucked it in my sash. It was easier than a dragoon to pull out and stayed in very nicely no matter how I moved. Something about the stock shape just seemed to work naturally. The double Im building will be on some sort of sling to be carried under the coat more than likely.

[Dread Pyrate Greyhound]

I've also notice having a pistol with a clip on the side is very practical. If your baldric is thick enough, the clip ensures that it stays put beautifully.